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## Bipods are being reworked

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Posts: 124

Date of registration
: Nov 29th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: Florida

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 1:56am

### Quoted from "Oak_Beard"

Why not just adjust the base spread? I always thought it was a bit counter-intuitive for the Lewis to have worse spread than the MG-15, and the Parabellum shockingly gets the same great spread as the MG-15.

I think it would make much more sense for the Lewis to be at .18, the MG-15 to be .21, and the Parabellum to be .24 or even .27. At that point you may not even need to make a bipod change, or at least a much less aggressive one that doesn't much change the current feel that we've all grown used to.

Anybody?

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 7,285

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: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 4:48am

minSpread only matters if you are firing one shot at a time.

hRec is pretty much the sole deciding factor for hitrate on an LMG.

You also have to keep in mind what each package gets access to.

Giving the Lewis better minSpread will make its Optical variant even more accurate.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 6:09am

The largest minspread on an LMG is 0.24. That's enough to guarantee a hit to the chest out to 60 m.

That's pretty much the edge of relevant ranges. If you reduce the minspread any more, it's a pretty redundant buff.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Posts: 226

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: Sep 20th 2016

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 1:04pm

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 1:49pm

Doesn't really matter with MGs because negative SIPS and negative SIPS FSM.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

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: Feb 16th 2017

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 4:16pm

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

The largest minspread on an LMG is 0.24. That's enough to guarantee a hit to the chest out to 60 m.

That's pretty much the edge of relevant ranges. If you reduce the minspread any more, it's a pretty redundant buff.
Maybe I have this wrong: .24 degrees at 60m is 25cm, this would only guarantee a hit if you were within a few cm of center right? Also, that is only if it takes one shot to kill, and you have no recoil to control for. From my perspective .24 at 60m would be a kill where I am (and almost everyone else is) likely to miss shots in securing the kill. The way cover and terrain are in this game, and the precision and insta-kill potential of snipers makes it hard for me to see 60m as the edge of relevance.
Additionally, I find it unsatisfying that bipoded lmgs have such a limited range, it simply feels off to me. You may say it is unfun to be suddenly killed from such long range, but we already have a much worse version of that with the bolt-rifles. A longer range lmg would reduce scout bull-shittery. However, this could lead to range creep; all the guns would have longer range. That would be fine with me and I think it suits the map design better too. I love games like that. Squad is currently my favorite fps. Squad is a niche game for a reason though, so I understand the decision to gimp the lmgs and agree that it's probably for the greater good.

Salt Miner

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: Mar 19th 2014

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Tuesday, September 19th 2017, 6:05pm

I agree 60m really isn't very far at all, but between the LMG min damage buffs and the (still in progress) SLR buff, BF1's average engagment range, and more importantly average kill range, is going to be very notably extended.
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Posts: 124

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: Nov 29th 2016

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Wednesday, September 20th 2017, 3:31am

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

The largest minspread on an LMG is 0.24. That's enough to guarantee a hit to the chest out to 60 m.

That's pretty much the edge of relevant ranges. If you reduce the minspread any more, it's a pretty redundant buff.

Are you saying because .24 is is the largest so far, it can't be pushed further? Also, I was advocating increasing minspread, as a substitute for reworking the bipods.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

That's how I understand it to work, everything is based off minspread. Not sure why one would think it only affects the first shot.

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Doesn't really matter with MGs because negative SIPS and negative SIPS FSM.

Can you elaborate here? Negative SIPS only takes you back to minspread, it never goes beyond minspread, correct?

At what range do we want the MG-14/17 to still be "good" on the bipod? 30m? 50m? Then simply give it enough minspread to where you're missing 50% of your bullets at a given range, and leave bipods the hell alone. Why isn't this a simple option that works, and doesn't change the feel we've grown accustomed to?

Salt Miner

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Wednesday, September 20th 2017, 5:29am

Making base spread worse is pretty much the single worst thing that could possibly be done; base spread cannot be countered.

H-Recoil and SIPS can both be negated by firing single shots, and while this gives you a much slower effective RoF, still allows you to actually hit that sniper 200m away with your MG 14 if you need to. Extremely accurate base spread, but far worse SIPS/etc is standard BF1 design for this exact reason; it allows versatility to skilled/smart players without making dedicated ranged weapons redundant.

The MG 15 (mostly LW with some Suppressive) is my most used gun in BF1, and really this is because aside from being fun, it's just an amazing do-everything gun. So I say this as an MG 15 user: A bipod redesign to make the proper ranged MGs actually viable at their role is absolutely needed. This change isn't just because of the MG 14, it's just that the MG 14 is extreme enough to make the already existing problem much clearer and more obvious.
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