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  • "Captain Qwark" started this thread

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Tuesday, August 8th 2017, 8:16am

The will to (be) (over)power(ed). Scout makes me feel op, even though I'm definitely not.

Like Marbleduck, I have grown increasingly dissatisfied with bf1's lack of agency. After some months absence, I find myself drawn towards weapons that prioritize different values. Instead of weapons that are geared towards ptfo and 1v1 potential I am favoring more accurate weapons that are able to sustain high average damage over the match. Higher accuracy gives me a greater connection to my actions, making the implementation of my intentions feel more deliberate and impacting. Naturally, flaws in the execution of an intention are more salient and seem to admit more readily of personal authorship. This is for the better, as it brings into focus the path towards progress. A responsive feedback mechanism is integral to the generation of 'flow-like' states of contented effort absorbed in the present moment.

Higher damage output over the length of a match feeds into a greater sense of power and personal control. This is where agency comes in, as agency is merely the condition of exerting power. The desire for power is a limitless, fundamental, and universal desire. I don't normally think of myself as a power hungry individual, but such an assessment is a relative measure using other power-mad primates as a yardstick. Additionally, upon close inspection, much of our mundane (and therefore seldom scrutinized) behavior cannot be credibly accounted for without invoking the desire for control as a causal agent. Video-games are a prime example of this, competitive multiplayer games doubly so. For example playing bf1 is much more fun than watching someone else do it, often even if they are a much better player than you. Given that we are so desirous of power, it makes sense that game mechanics which increase the experience of power can be very enjoyable. I think that the amount of damage you deal to other people greatly influences your experience of exercising power.

So how does all this translate into weapon choices? Well, for me it means that I now play scout rather than medic, my old main class, which I used to play almost exclusively. It required me to change my priorities and probe more deeply into what I wanted from the experience. It is probably not right for everyone and it isn't a large shift in experience. If you don't like bf1, this play-style won't change that. Dice knows how to make games, so naturally the virtues I prize in the scout class are present in the other classes as well. Scout is merely the best implementation of these ethics in my opinion. I like that scout feels more powerful and controllable. Despite a likely hit to spm and/or kdr, I find the game significantly more enjoyable.

Below are calculations for what I call effective damage per second (EDPS). I define it as the damage you can realistically deal over periods of time much greater than a single engagement. In the example I use my personal stats, gathered from battlefieldtracker.com. I encourage others to input their own stats and use different weapons. I think this metric is especially insightful when applied to cross-class weapon comparisons. I use this because I think it shows us part of what we want to know when we are considering the feeling of power that a weapon gives, though I acknowledge that it is rough and incomplete. Also, I don't recall this calculation being explicitly mentioned, if there is some other analysis that renders this piece obsolete or redundant I would be pleased to know it. If this metric is old hat I apologize. I haven't seen quite it's like here, though I have been absent for a bit. Critiques, comments, and questions welcome.


SMLE
Damage: 15 kills**
hits 45%
hits per mag(10): 4.5
hits per kill:1.65
kills per mag: 2.7, 5.56 mags per 15 kills
ROF: 52 rpm, .87 rps, 11.494s pmag x 5.56 mags= 63.91s per 15 kills worth of mags
reload: 5.4s x5 reloads= 27s per 15 kills worth of reloads

27s reload + 63.91s shooting = 90.91s to get 15 kills
SPK(seconds per kill)= 6.061s
KPS(kills per second)= 0.165k
EDPS(effective damage per second)*=16.5

Mondragon optical
Damage: 15 kills**
hits 30%
hits per mag(10): 3
hits per kill: 3.44
kills per mag: 0.87, 17.24 mags per 15 kills
ROF: 257 rpm, 4.28 rps, 2.335s pmag x 17.24 mags= 40.26s per 15 kills worth of mags
reload: 3.833s x 16.5 reloads= 63.25s per 15 kills worth of reloads

63.25s reload + 40.26s shooting = 103.51s to get 15 kills
SPK(seconds per kill)= 6.901s
KPS(kills per second)= 0.145k
EDPS(effective damage per second)*=14.5


*damage ending in a kill
**could use any high number of kills, keeping in mind killing capacity of total ammo pool

Conclusion: SMLE DPS is 14% more than Mondragon for qwark

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Captain Qwark" (Aug 8th 2017, 8:24am)


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Tuesday, August 8th 2017, 11:45am

I, too, have found Scout to be my most effective and fun class, but I didn't do any mathematical analyses to figure it out. I just experimented. I played each class for about a week and concluded that Scout is the "best" class in BF1. There are several factors that combine to lead to this conclusion I think:

  • 80-90 Min Damage

- 1 hit with your primary + quick switching to a pistol yields a raw TTK of the pistol's draw time which ranges from 0.4s - 0.6s. It can also yield several 'Assist Counts as Kills' which are just as valuable as kills themselves. This makes Scouts who can aim competitive even at close to medium range which completely ignores the range balancing that shotguns, SMGs, SLRs, and MGs have.

  • Map Design

- Base CQ maps feature a lot of long range sightlines with inadequate cover outside of objectives reducing the mid range role to near ineffectiveness making standard SLRs and MGs (those NOT specialized for close range) practically useless, competitively; anyone can do good with any gun against crap opposition). Scout specializes in long range which gives them an immediate advantage if they position well even against other players on objectives.

  • One Shot Kills: Sweet Spots and Headshots

- There is no denying that Sweet Spot kills are incredibly satisfying, despite their lacking in technical aim skill. It's much more difficult to track a target with an SLR given the movement mechanics than it is to acquire a target and end him in one shot. SLRs are more demanding to use effectively with BF1's high TTK for automatic and semi-automatic weaponry. Tracking takes a considerable amount of time to the point where you'll be exposed for half a second or more at a time giving other opponents ample opportunity to react and engage. Scouts don't have to be exposed for very long and in fact prey on those stuck in engagements.

- Headshots are absolutely amazing to achieve in BF1. The sound itself is addictive let alone the ability to instakill headshot at any range if you have the prowess to match.

  • Reliable Bullet Physics

- I'm just going to lump the physics associated with BAs here. 0į standing ADS base spread and high velocity make for an accurate and easy to use shooting platform that excels in BF1's map design. While I appreciate the range balancing that the other primaries have, Scouts can just circumvent it with good aim which is invaluable.

  • Confidence

- This is mores a personal observation, but whenever I play Scout I have an abundance of confidence because I know if my aim is true and I'm in my respective Sweet Spot I have myself a kill. Similarly, if I line up a headshot and I've accounted for the bullet drop correctly, then I've definitely earned that kill without question which is satisfying as hell. I also know that I can engage at any range with my trusty Bodeo at my side as it has a very respectable 2-shot kill range and TTK. The OP Spotting Flare is a nice addition too. I know where you are going and can anticipate your next movements or lie in wait for sneak attack.

  • The Ability to Succeed at Any Range (Confidence Pt. II)

- I'm beating a dead horse by now, but I cannot stress enough that knowing you can engage an Assault, Medic, or Support from close, medium, and long range is such a valuable asset to have. At long range other classes cannot even think to touch me or they'll end up in the spawn menu and leading shots on moving targets isn't that particularly challenging thanks to high velocity. Scouts don't have to give as much of a fuck about positioning as the other classes do which makes them that much more effective and easy to use in a game that emphasizes the ever-loving shit outta positioning. Not in Sweet Spot range? Tag 'em with a body shot and finish with a pistol if close enough or let someone else finish the kill. Or just line up a nasty headshot if possible.

Like it or not, Scout is the meta class for reducing player agency; I just embraced the meta and converted to the dark side.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
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    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
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    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
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    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
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    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
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    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
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    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Aug 8th 2017, 11:52am)


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Tuesday, August 8th 2017, 4:30pm

The sense of power through damage output is an interesting notion.

Personally, I find satisfaction from weapons which are either seldom used or offer benefits which are not immediately obvious. To many, the huot likely feels like a peashooter, but the satisfaction I get from seeing all hits connect rather easily due to its immense accuracy makes me really happy, especially when going up against more 'mainstream' weapons such as the BAR Storm.

The fact that BF1 has unbelievably good aesthetic and audio design with regards to weapons. An example of this is the Cei-Rigotti, which feels incredibly power to use thanks to this.

The slow time to kill also ensures that my sense of reward is far greater than previous games due to the increased difficulty in countering different enemies. Instead of bringing down all of them, I use correct timing's and even hit and run t actics to get the job done. Mind you, I find TTK models (BF4 and BF1) rewarding in their own right, I am just glad that both offer a distinctly unique experience.

Nice post.

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Tuesday, August 8th 2017, 9:31pm

Seems like BAs are always a difficult to balance.

Either they are too stronk or completely under powered (BF1 or BF4 respectively)

Would like to see a better use for Slugs on semi auto shotguns then.

But yeah, of course map design matters more.

e.g. a map like zavod where the soldiers have plenty of corners to hide would hinder the stronk BF1 BAs a bit.
still playin' Motorstorm

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Tuesday, August 8th 2017, 11:41pm

Has it really taken this long for people to realize how ridiculously powerful BAs are in BF1?

All BF4's BAs needed to make them viable was the average 40% velocity increase BF1's BAs have, while also adding greater bullet drop to make longer distance shots still fairly challenging to pull off. Instead, we get that velocity buff, not having to compensate for bullet drop as much, slightly faster bolt cycling times (-10%), a whopping increase in minimum damage, sweet spots, and faster sidearm switches. High minimum damage and fast sidearm switches (as well as access to the Frommer Stop/Bodeo) still allow Scouts to operate in CQC, as well as having access to Flares. Which btw, have no counterplay to avoid detection until now, required that you equip the perk for it.

The BF3 Medic meta was obnoxious, but I'd prefer that anyday to BF1's toxic Scout dominance

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Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 4:25am

Well I don't feel as bad about my play after reading this.

I'm a noob to gaming and hooked on BF1 as a military/history nerd.

I played support exclusively but recently became an MD disciple and wanted to take my game to the next level (plus after 30 SS with the BARs, kills just aren't as gratifying), so have been playing Medic with the M8 factory or 1906. These are challenges for me, my already pathetic stats are taking a nose dive. So the SLR difficulty factor is for real, at least for me. Those 1K kills MD says are needed to get good with it are a grind for me. Maybe if I get the hang of it I'll try Scout, though skill in that class totally eludes me.

I think it was MD who commented on reducing explosive spam by decreasing TTK. I'm all for it. The explosive spam is out of control, IMO.

I'm truly curious, though: If guns like the BAs & some SLRs are OP, why the majority of kills at close range w automatic weapons? Is it because they're the weapon of choice for low/average skill players? Map design (as MD commented in an excellent video, and I totally agree with)? My own experience, being average at best, points to the low-skill-required, as my KPM is better with the Hellriegl than any other weapon (I haven't checked the M10 stats, maybe even better.). When a player can begin strafing from behind a corner, step into the open and kill the player round the corner, something's just wrong.

I must admit though, when struggling with the M8 and my team behind, I will pick one of my crutches,the Hellriegl, BAR or M10 hunter.

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Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 5:09pm

Has it really taken this long for people to realize how ridiculously powerful BAs are in BF1?

All BF4's BAs needed to make them viable was the average 40% velocity increase BF1's BAs have, while also adding greater bullet drop to make longer distance shots still fairly challenging to pull off. Instead, we get that velocity buff, not having to compensate for bullet drop as much, slightly faster bolt cycling times (-10%), a whopping increase in minimum damage, sweet spots, and faster sidearm switches. High minimum damage and fast sidearm switches (as well as access to the Frommer Stop/Bodeo) still allow Scouts to operate in CQC, as well as having access to Flares. Which btw, have no counterplay to avoid detection until now, required that you equip the perk for it.

The BF3 Medic meta was obnoxious, but I'd prefer that anyday to BF1's toxic Scout dominance


It's funny because BF3 Medic was easily my least favorite class with exception of the LOL surprise underslung shottie and nade tube... Support/Recon all the way for me because I like big guns and *never* running out of ammo, and for Recon I just like knowing where the enemies are since I'm so bad at spatial awareness... I'd repeatedly argued in the old days that BF3 Recon was the most powerful class because of its arsenal of toys (it wouldn't have even been a argument if the SOFLAM and IRNV scopes actually worked like they were supposed to), but sadly it was also the most mis-played class so it had a really bad reputation among the player base...

BF1 Scout has much worse toys this time around and limited abilities for CQB/engaging multiple enemies but it's still my go-to class thanks to the spotting flare... I just hate that I have to follow around a support just to use it more than two times...

But while one-shotting folks is enjoyable, it's all fun and games until you miss or only do 85 damage and you're left standing there with your ugatz in your hand... :S

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "botafogo4life" (Aug 10th 2017, 2:14pm)


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Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 11:20pm



SMLE
Damage: 15 kills**
hits 45%
hits per mag(10): 4.5
hits per kill:1.65
kills per mag: 2.7, 5.56 mags per 15 kills
ROF: 52 rpm, .87 rps, 11.494s pmag x 5.56 mags= 63.91s per 15 kills worth of mags
reload: 5.4s x5 reloads= 27s per 15 kills worth of reloads

27s reload + 63.91s shooting = 90.91s to get 15 kills
SPK(seconds per kill)= 6.061s
KPS(kills per second)= 0.165k
EDPS(effective damage per second)*=16.5

Mondragon optical
Damage: 15 kills**
hits 30%
hits per mag(10): 3
hits per kill: 3.44
kills per mag: 0.87, 17.24 mags per 15 kills
ROF: 257 rpm, 4.28 rps, 2.335s pmag x 17.24 mags= 40.26s per 15 kills worth of mags
reload: 3.833s x 16.5 reloads= 63.25s per 15 kills worth of reloads

63.25s reload + 40.26s shooting = 103.51s to get 15 kills
SPK(seconds per kill)= 6.901s
KPS(kills per second)= 0.145k
EDPS(effective damage per second)*=14.5


*damage ending in a kill
**could use any high number of kills, keeping in mind killing capacity of total ammo pool

Conclusion: SMLE DPS is 14% more than Mondragon for qwark


I like this but there is a major flaw in your math: the SMLE is only a OHK if you hit the head, or are in the sweet spot.... So, you should be counting headshots for the mondragon, too.

All BF4's BAs needed to make them viable was the average 40% velocity increase BF1's BAs have, while also adding greater bullet drop to make longer distance shots still fairly challenging to pull off. Instead, we get that velocity buff, not having to compensate for bullet drop as much, slightly faster bolt cycling times (-10%), a whopping increase in minimum damage, sweet spots, and faster sidearm switches. High minimum damage and fast sidearm switches (as well as access to the Frommer Stop/Bodeo) still allow Scouts to operate in CQC, as well as having access to Flares. Which btw, have no counterplay to avoid detection until now, required that you equip the perk for it.


I see where you're coming from, and I don't entirely disagree that they got a substantial buff, but it's not nearly as bad as you make out. BF4 recon had a sweetspot too, it just got moved out - which made it decidedly less useful. The hitmarker/swap/pistol finish is not actually viable in CQC, the TTK is massive. The swap alone is still almost twice the TTK of other CQC weapons. They also had the 93R, G18 and serbu shorty and motion balls, TUGS and MAV. Flares have always been countered by smoke. The increase in min damage only changes assist counts as kills. The bullet drop is not an issue until you're well beyond normal useful ranges even for a long range class - and let's not forget the effect of the headglitch fix and non-zero zeroing of scopes was a thing in BF4, too. On top of this, a few things you didn't mention that are nerfs to the class are things like pilots being MUCH harder to hit due to the aircraft model exposing less of the pilot's model (even more relevant now that scout takes on engineer's anti-air role), head hitboxes shrinking, ADAD spam being worse, drag, and increased gravity.

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Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 11:23pm

BF1 Bolt Actions are the only weapons in the game that are exactly where they should be. The problem is they got all the buffs they should have received in BF4... while everything else got significant downgrades.

If we actually got the proposed BTK shift, everything would line up like it's supposed to.
Who has fun, wins.

  • "Captain Qwark" started this thread

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Wednesday, August 9th 2017, 11:49pm

I like this but there is a major flaw in your math: the SMLE is only a OHK if you hit the head, or are in the sweet spot.... So, you should be counting headshots for the mondragon, too.
I don't think I listed headshots specifically even for the SMLE. That is simply because the hits per kill stat covers this for both weapons in addition to many other factors that we find in practice but are not within the purview of many analyses found here. That's one of things I enjoy most about this method; it factors in things like getting a hit on someone and never making the kill, or killing players who aren't at full health. I should emphasize that it doesn't include kills where the pistol is used as a finisher, and perhaps not even assists counted as kills, so you can expect the real power of the rifle to be even higher.

I would like to add that the high burst damage nature of the BA means that firing from cover and taking cover between shots; allows you to make the time you are exposed to enemy damage very small. Cover can also make your area of vulnerability very small. This radical imbalance of exposure, in both time and space, is very powerful even if it cannot be relied upon for every engagement. I recall the halcyon days of the 8.35, when this forum would repeatedly extol the virtues of playing from cover and emphasizing accuracy. The BAs exploit these behaviors to a far greater degree in my opinion.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Captain Qwark" (Aug 10th 2017, 12:12am)