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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 3:27am

But I find this argument flawed. In that example, you need 9 frames to put out 5 single taps. However in a close enough range, I would magdump you and kill you in 5 frames, and you won't be able to put out your 4th and 5th shot.


RandomDeviation discusses frames solely in the context of recovery.

That is why there is the statement "Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS while avoiding spread increase."

And while a standard model can have varying optimum bursts, it still heavily favors microbursting for the reasons previously written.


My problem with the second sentence is that the definition of DPS there restricted the time as 10 frames. What if I am talking about the DPS of the first 5 frames? or first 4 frames? It also did not take into account of dying. After a player is dead, DPS is 0.

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 3:44am



@tankmayvin

May I ask what was the G36C fiasco?


In BF4 G36C sucked ass because of terribad rate of fire: 650 RPM vs 750+ RPM guns available for the rest of the carbine class. Plus it now had to compete with some really excellent offerings in the PDW class, notably PDW-R firing at 750. RPM was straight downgraded from BF3.

G36C obviously needed a useful buff. Namely some sort of RPM buff, but DICE refused to buff RPM on grounds that they had "measured" RPM of a sample gun on the range.

So they basically reduced it's recoil to zero. But recoil management wasn't really a problem for the 700-800 rpm carbines (especially with tapfire and addition of PDW metas) so G36 remained a useless weapon.

Makes you really scratch your head when DICE is going on about "muh realism!"

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 3:53am

But I find this argument flawed. In that example, you need 9 frames to put out 5 single taps. However in a close enough range, I would magdump you and kill you in 5 frames, and you won't be able to put out your 4th and 5th shot.


RandomDeviation discusses frames solely in the context of recovery.

That is why there is the statement "Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS while avoiding spread increase."

And while a standard model can have varying optimum bursts, it still heavily favors microbursting for the reasons previously written.


My problem with the second sentence is that the definition of DPS there restricted the time as 10 frames. What if I am talking about the DPS of the first 5 frames? or first 4 frames? It also did not take into account of dying. After a player is dead, DPS is 0.


Except both models favor magdumping while the target is close enough to permit it.

That sort of comparison is kind of useless which is a good reason to focus the example on when recovery was necessary.

However, standard SIPS favors variable bursts less than with the multiplier in place.
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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 4:40am

@tankmayvin

Negative SIPS does kinda of incentivize using the lmg in a manner similar to real life. Long but controlled bursts walking fire into the enemy. Not a perfect analog but I think it kinda makes senses without adding a ton of recoil or a complicated heat management system into the game.

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 4:57am

@tankmayvin

Negative SIPS does kinda of incentivize using the lmg in a manner similar to real life. Long but controlled bursts walking fire into the enemy. Not a perfect analog but I think it kinda makes senses without adding a ton of recoil or a complicated heat management system into the game.


Exactly this. It's the best system a group of gunplay experts have been able to come up with. It may not be perfect, but I have yet to hear any suggestions that accomplish the same goal in a different way.

I've suggested Recoil Increase Per Shot, which would naturally be negative for MGs, but even that is really just a different flavour of the same concept.
Who has fun, wins.

  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 5:02am

But I find this argument flawed. In that example, you need 9 frames to put out 5 single taps. However in a close enough range, I would magdump you and kill you in 5 frames, and you won't be able to put out your 4th and 5th shot.


RandomDeviation discusses frames solely in the context of recovery.

That is why there is the statement "Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS while avoiding spread increase."

And while a standard model can have varying optimum bursts, it still heavily favors microbursting for the reasons previously written.


My problem with the second sentence is that the definition of DPS there restricted the time as 10 frames. What if I am talking about the DPS of the first 5 frames? or first 4 frames? It also did not take into account of dying. After a player is dead, DPS is 0.




Except both models favor magdumping while the target is close enough to permit it.

That sort of comparison is kind of useless which is a good reason to focus the example on when recovery was necessary.

However, standard SIPS favors variable bursts less than with the multiplier in place.






True that both models favor magdumping at close enough range, my gripe with SIPS FSM is that it takes away microbursting while at range, and it is my opinion that microbursting at range creates depth to gun play. I do not preclude the possibility that some combination of >1 SIPS FSM, SIPS and SDEC also creates equal or more depth to gun play, but it is my opinion that the current implementation has much lower depth to gun play than standard SIPS and SDEC. And until DICE has figured out one of the aforementioned combinations, I believe we should stick to standard SIPS and SDEC.






Quoted from "sid_tai"





@tankmayvin

May I ask what was the G36C fiasco?


In BF4 G36C sucked ass because of terribad rate of fire: 650 RPM vs 750+ RPM guns available for the rest of the carbine class. Plus it now had to compete with some really excellent offerings in the PDW class, notably PDW-R firing at 750. RPM was straight downgraded from BF3.

G36C obviously needed a useful buff. Namely some sort of RPM buff, but DICE refused to buff RPM on grounds that they had "measured" RPM of a sample gun on the range.

So they basically reduced it's recoil to zero. But recoil management wasn't really a problem for the 700-800 rpm carbines (especially with tapfire and addition of PDW metas) so G36 remained a useless weapon.

Makes you really scratch your head when DICE is going on about "muh realism!"

Actually, I find G36C HB stubby to be a very good weapon for medium-long range if you have to go engineer and the map forces you into that sort of engagements.

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 5:07am

Mirco-bursting is awful and excessively videogame-ish. Normal bursting, meaning three-to-six rounds, should absolutely be the optimal burst style. And MGs should definitely be firing long than that.
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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 5:11am

Mirco-bursting is awful and excessively videogame-ish. Normal bursting, meaning three-to-six rounds, should absolutely be the optimal burst style. And MGs should definitely be firing long than that.


Bleeding, I could infer from your replies that you are a fan of the negative SIPS mechanic. Are there any other reasons you like it besides the fact that it is close to real life usage? I personally would take gun play depth over realism.

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 5:17am

Microbursting isn't deep though. It's basically a question of how quickly you can output 2 round bursts.

If you want depth to gunplay, changing optimal bursts through range is much better which is what the current model is capable of while eliminating microbursting.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 6:31am

It is very counter-intuitive though, not something you'd ever try without a sound understanding of the underlying mechanics, plus you do have to fight the instinct to fire longer bursts with longer pauses between them. A very low skill ceiling but still there.

I wonder how many other game micro-bursting would work in, honestly. Seems like Dice was just trying to make Battlefield play like real life weapons, as with most FPS designers. I bet many made of the oversight of not testing players treating assault rifles as very fast firing semi-autos.