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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 6:37am

Opinion on BF1's new spread mechanics

With BF1's release, we got 2 new weapon spread mechanics: SIPS FSM for SMGs and negative SIPS for LMGs. Now we are almost 9 months after BF1's release, we should have a pretty good understanding and experience with them and I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these two mechanisms.

Personally, I believe both are very frustrating to play with under the current implementation. First SIPS FSM. I think with the low spread decrease and low SIPS, it only serves to "shadow increase" base spread by SIPS*(FSM-1) because it takes so long to recover from the spread of the first shot, one tapping is too slow to be effective. In addition, with the high number of BTK of SMGs, one bullet matters much less. It can be shown by a hypothetical experiment of increasing the base spread of all SMGs (excluding MP18 experimental) by SIPS*(FSM-1). Just try to imagine, you will not change your play style, nor will the effectiveness of the weapon change noticeably. The low SIPS low SDEC system we have now encourages magdumping (MB1 PRO BOIS), personally I believe there is no depth to it.

Now onto negative SIPS. It makes LMGs very inconsistent at around 20-30m range. The number of bullets you need to dispense to kill someone is ridiculously high. Anecdotal example: I needed 8 shots from the MG15 storm to kill someone prone on the ground on the opposite sidewalk of a road on Amiens. I was 100% on him the whole time, from the first shot to the last. For medium range (40-60m), the time and shots it takes for spread to recover generally means target would have run to a cover, and/or you have alerted the entire mountain of snipers and all the medics with SLRs in their optimum range to fire back at you.

I am not going to pretend otherwise but the above is a rant of my frustrations of playing assault and support. Only the medic rifles consistently make me feel either "I earned that kill" or "I potatoed and I deserved the death". I think I genuinely perfer the standard SIPS and SDEC system, at least over the current implementation. I believe for SMG, SIPS FSM needs to go down, SIPS and SDEC needs to go up to make the SMGs feel remotely rewarding to play. For LMGs, I think the standard SIPS and SDEC system, coupled with the slow firerate should work well enough, at least better than the negative SIPS system.

Discuss.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 7:04am

Making the SMG's base spread the same as its current second shot isn't exactly the same. The current spread value allows the player to tap-fire. It just won't be like in BF4 where tap-fire and micro-bursting were super dominant. That is the whole point of the First shot SIPS Multiplier. For the SMGs, you can choose between tap-firing slowly to guarantee each hit lands. Or if your target is well within your effective range, you can magdump quite easily. If your second shot is able to hit reasonably well, the low SIPS means all the follow-ups should be able to as well. In between, the player has to figure out the proper burst lengths and timings. Changing this to a low multiplier, high SIPS, high SDEC model would make tap-firing much better than it is now and potentially better than full auto given the scales that these numbers work.

For the LMGs, the negative SIPS combined with the negative multiplier provides a delay that offsets the eventual superb ranged damage output. It's a small window of weakness that enemy players can try to exploit before they are put at a disadvantage. Changing LMGs to standard SIPS and SDEC with a slower fire rate is just going to make them worse.
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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 7:11am

Making the SMG's base spread the same as its current second shot isn't exactly the same. The current spread value allows the player to tap-fire. It just won't be like in BF4 where tap-fire and micro-bursting were super dominant. That is the whole point of the First shot SIPS Multiplier. For the SMGs, you can choose between tap-firing slowly to guarantee each hit lands. Or if your target is well within your effective range, you can magdump quite easily. If your second shot is able to hit reasonably well, the low SIPS means all the follow-ups should be able to as well. In between, the player has to figure out the proper burst lengths and timings. Changing this to a low multiplier, high SIPS, high SDEC model would make tap-firing much better than it is now and potentially better than full auto given the scales that these numbers work.



The tapping is too slow to be effective in my experience, I would be better off not shooting. I would hugely prefer tap-firing to magdumpping.
'
Edit: I meant bursting to magdumpping.
For the LMGs, the negative SIPS combined with the negative multiplier provides a delay that offsets the eventual superb ranged damage output. It's a small window of weakness that enemy players can try to exploit before they are put at a disadvantage. Changing LMGs to standard SIPS and SDEC with a slower fire rate is just going to make them worse.


I meant keeping the current firerate of LMGs, which is generally slowER than SMGs.

Zer0Cod3x

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 4:21pm

The addition of FSSM isn't actually all that different from previous BF titles. It's essentially linear spread increase with the added option of being able to single tap shots at range.

Yes, single tapping shots is not all that effective, and it is not supposed to be effective. At the range where single shots are effective, you're way outside of your SMG's effective range. However, at least you do have the option to hit targets at range now, whereas in previous titles you couldn't, even with tapfire for.


Negative SIPS is a good idea, however, the way it's implemented in BF1 is, IMO, incredibly boring. Without a recoil system that poses any real difficulty, LMGs are quite literally point and click weapons.

In order for negative SIPS to be well implemented, I think there needs to be some sort of recoil system that's far more complicated than the one currently in BF1.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


marbleduck

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 8:06pm

The first condition that needs to be met for a decent recoil system is an anticheat that successfully detects and bans for mouse macros. If you compensate for recoil in the exact same way every single time, you're probably using a macro.

Once we have that in place, LMGs can actually have interesting recoil.

SFSM is better than just pure SIPS.

1) It allows for smaller base spread

2) It affects your weapons performance from the moment you start shooting, not just 4 bullets in

3) Prevents short bursts with fast rest from *always* being better

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You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 9:31pm

The new mechanics are fantastic, the real problem is how useless single shots are with BF1's terrible damage output.

I would also like to see new potential mechanics tested, such as random V-Recoil, some Down Recoil, and/or Recoil Increase Per Shot.
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Saturday, July 15th 2017, 10:16pm

The addition of FSSM isn't actually all that different from previous BF titles. It's essentially linear spread increase with the added option of being able to single tap shots at range.

Yes, single tapping shots is not all that effective, and it is not supposed to be effective. At the range where single shots are effective, you're way outside of your SMG's effective range. However, at least you do have the option to hit targets at range now, whereas in previous titles you couldn't, even with tapfire for.


Negative SIPS is a good idea, however, the way it's implemented in BF1 is, IMO, incredibly boring. Without a recoil system that poses any real difficulty, LMGs are quite literally point and click weapons.

In order for negative SIPS to be well implemented, I think there needs to be some sort of recoil system that's far more complicated than the one currently in BF1.


I find the LMG implementation really "boring" as well. Point and click and wait for your weapon to reach shot-to shot precision where you can actually hit target.

I don't think negative SIPS is a good mechanic. It feels exceptionally gamey, which in my mind is fitting for a sci-fi arena shooter where there is no pretense the weapons aren't anything but fanciful. IMO it doesn't fit in well with something like BF1 that has a very arbitrary application of authenticity (essentially a thin veneer of aesthetics in this case). However DICE will always be plagued by the G36C fiasco where they stick by implementation based on their IRL experience.

Which is it DICE?

Especially frustrating is that negative SIPS carries over to vehicle MGs. Why? For consistency in handling? They don't need to fit in with any small arm balance paradigm because they aren't shooting it out against other small arms. If they wanted to prevent snap shots against proned infantry that could have just tweaked base spread values or added a first shot spread mult like with SMGs.

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 12:47am

The tapping is too slow to be effective in my experience



SMGs and LMGs have a first shot multiplier applied to spread increase, in the same way BF1 and previous games have a first shot multiplier applied to recoil.

What this means for gameplay is the SMGs are more accurate on their first shot from previous games, but that shot incurs high spread increase, while following shots have very low spread increase. Effectively it's spread increase per burst for SMGs. What this means is that SMGs lose DPS as they make their bursts shorter.

Here's some made up numbers to simply explain the design behind it. Say we have a weapon that takes 1 frame to reset the spread increase of a single shot. Firing a five round burst would mean we'd need 5 frames to recover to min spread. Alternatively we could shoot one shot, spend 1 frame recovering, and repeat that 4 more times. The total time spent is still 5 frames, but all shots were fired at min spread. Why would I ever shoot a longer burst? Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS, while avoiding spread increase.

If instead we apply a first shot spread increase multiplier, say 2 for this example, what happens is this:

For a five round burst it takes 2 frames to recover from the first shot and 1 for each of the following for a total of 6 frames. 5 single shots take 2 frames each to recover for a total of 10 frames. There's now actually a reason to vary burst lengths. Very short bursts or single shots retain their accuracy but require more recovery time. Longer bursts are less accurate, but have higher DPS if they're still accurate enough to hit. This makes these SMGs excellent at close range with longer bursts, and allows them to be accurate enough to get hits with short bursts or single shots at longer ranges but with a DPS reduction that stops them from being too good outside their intended range.

In short, FSSM makes it so microbursting at all ranges isn't the optimal way to use a weapon, and makes using different burst rates at different ranges more effective.

For LMGs it's a little different, spread "increase" per shot is negative, meaning it actually decreases, and the FSSM is also negative, making the first shot's spread positive. The first shot of an LMG will be accurate, but incur a large spread penalty, each successive shot regains accuracy, usually getting back to min spread around the 6th shot.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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  • "sid_tai" started this thread

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 3:02am

@Zer0Cod3x

If single tapping is not effective, is this a real option? I would argue that it is a fake option.

@marbleduck @NoctyrneSAGA

You two are making a similar point of micro-bursting being always better magdump/longer burst. So I am going to lump my replies into one. In the rationale quoted from RandomDeviation, he made an example that one shot burst is always better than 5 consecutive shots. But I find this argument flawed. In that example, you need 9 frames to put out 5 single taps. However in a close enough range, I would magdump you and kill you in 5 frames, and you won't be able to put out your 4th and 5th shot. Or a bit further out, I could fire one single bullet, one frame to reset, and fire 4 more to finish you off, etc. It actually still enables different burst lengths depending on range, because if you do one taps all the time, people know what range to mag dump or do shorter bursts will kill you faster than you can one tap. The main point is that he ignored the benefits of burst damage, and he only considered average damage over a (relatively) long period of time.

@tankmayvin

May I ask what was the G36C fiasco?

NoctyrneSAGA

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Sunday, July 16th 2017, 3:20am

But I find this argument flawed. In that example, you need 9 frames to put out 5 single taps. However in a close enough range, I would magdump you and kill you in 5 frames, and you won't be able to put out your 4th and 5th shot.


RandomDeviation discusses frames solely in the context of recovery.

That is why there is the statement "Microbursting allows for the same effective DPS while avoiding spread increase."

And while a standard model can have varying optimum bursts, it still heavily favors microbursting for the reasons previously written.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.