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31

Monday, June 26th 2017, 9:48pm

it sounds like a question of reducing the layers in the game and make it "simpler". Nothing bad at first glance, but why have the arm modifiers been added in the first place?

We should not forget why something was implemented years ago, before discussing about removing it.
still playin' Motorstorm

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32

Monday, June 26th 2017, 10:39pm





Quoted from "sid_tai"



But there is one thing that Duck did not mention that leads to inconsistencies is the arm multiplier for regular weapons. It absolutely needs to go. It adds nothing to the regular weapons (non-BA) dynamics except inconsistency.


Could you please point out such a weapon that has its min/max BTK affected by that multiplier?

I believe the weapon damage is designed to have the same BTK if you have hit all chest or all arm shots. However, my question would be then, why add this feature to the regular weapons? I do not like the feel when I hit some with a Benet-Mercie, for example, in the upper body and do 18 instead of 19 damage. It feels inconsistent. The question should not be "why not have it?".
But there is one thing that Duck did not mention that leads to inconsistencies is the arm multiplier for regular weapons. It absolutely needs to go. It adds nothing to the regular weapons (non-BA) dynamics except inconsistency.


Could you please point out such a weapon that has its min/max BTK affected by that multiplier?


In this game you are often not at 100% health and there things like this really matter. It also further complicates the gunplay with more modifiers. This is unneeded and should go, especially since you are bound to hit the arms whenever a a guy crosses your path. Exaggerated spread further enhances the inconsistencies caused by modifiers.

Generally I do find it intriguing that people realise now how poor the gameplay really is, when it comes to mechanics as well as map design, 9 months after release. I guess some people were enlightened.
Well, the limb and lower torso multipliers for most weapons are 0.96x, so it very rarely makes a difference for those.

I've gone through the damage models and the general pattern is as follows:
-SLRs have just two damage points, i.e. after a certain distance they lose damage in a linear fashion until they reach the minimum damage. E.g. the Cei-Rigotti has a ~1.2m shorter 3BTK range with only limb/lower torso shots.
-SMGs, MGs, sidearms and the M1903 Experimental (which has the same model as the C93) have more complex damage models. Instead of following a straight line, the threshold distances where BTK increases with +1 are always 1m shorter with only limb/lower torso shots.

It does beg the question why they would implement the multiplier in the first place if it's such a small difference, though. And I could swear I've sometimes done like 98 or 99 damage with 3 hits from one of the longer ranged SLRs, even though 35 x 0.96 should be enough to guarantee 3BTK.

The bigger issue is the arm multipliers for Scout rifles (not so much for the Gewehr 95 and Russian 1895 Trench) and the Slug shotgun because A) they are reliant on their huge single-shot damage and B) their multipliers are much worse, especially for the lower arms. Forcing you to aim carefully is not a bad thing, but it's really annoying when an arm blocks a shot that would have realistically gone right through and hit the torso behind it.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

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33

Monday, June 26th 2017, 10:47pm

Forcing you to aim carefully is not a bad thing, but it's really annoying when an arm blocks a shot that would have realistically gone right through and hit the torso behind it.


This. The concept of reducing damage on, say, just arms that are sticking out from behind a wall is fine, but only if there's also a system to ensure that when a bullet passes through an enemy, it does the damage of whatever the highest damage point is.

A shot through an arm and then through a chest should do chest damage, a shot up someone's butt and out their face should be a headshot, and so forth. Until this system exists, the arm multipliers should go.
Who has fun, wins.

VincentNZ

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34

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 12:38am

it sounds like a question of reducing the layers in the game and make it "simpler". Nothing bad at first glance, but why have the arm modifiers been added in the first place?

We should not forget why something was implemented years ago, before discussing about removing it.


Well, the headshot multiplier was likely added, I guess, for cinematic reasons and to give a kind of reward for hitting a small body part. Adding other multipliers later, that "punish" hitting a certain spot seems silly to me, especially when you will hit these spots anyway. I guess they wanted to deepen the shooting mechanics or it was part of the huge balance/BTK-algorithm that they calculated.

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35

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 2:19am

In this game you are often not at 100% health and there things like this really matter. It also further complicates the gunplay with more modifiers. This is unneeded and should go, especially since you are bound to hit the arms whenever a a guy crosses your path. Exaggerated spread further enhances the inconsistencies caused by modifiers.

Generally I do find it intriguing that people realise now how poor the gameplay really is, when it comes to mechanics as well as map design, 9 months after release. I guess some people were enlightened.

Alternatively, you could always just aim better and not hit the arms.

Why are you so against gunplay that has even the slightest bit of complexity?
Like VincentNZ said, complexity is good, but complexity also means it is something that the user can control. Like a slower spread decrease. A user can wait a little bit more for spread to reset. This is complexity. But arm multiplier is a feature that does not add a layer of depth to the game, at least for regular weapons. With spread universally higher than previous titles, we are bound to hit the arms, intended or not. And it creates inconsistencies. I believe this is also the reason why we have 1.0 multipliers across the board for shotguns.

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36

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 12:25am

I agree that LMGs need a buff in range vs SMGs. IMO, SMGs have way to long an effective range.

For assault, I don't think a buff should be equal across the board. In my experience, just about all assault players gravitate to the Hellriegl and M10 Hunter.

The rest of the classes seem to have a pretty good mix of primaries.

I can't recall the website that has the weapons usage stats, but it showed the BAR storm the overwhelming favorite in support. I haven't found that to be the case, as I run in to a pretty diverse group of LMGs.

Someone above seemed to want less Automaticos. Of all the SMGs, I probably encounter them the least. For fast-killing CQC, I'll take the M10.

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37

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 11:44am

I agree that LMGs need a buff in range vs SMGs. IMO, SMGs have way to long an effective range.

For assault, I don't think a buff should be equal across the board. In my experience, just about all assault players gravitate to the Hellriegl and M10 Hunter.

The rest of the classes seem to have a pretty good mix of primaries.

I can't recall the website that has the weapons usage stats, but it showed the BAR storm the overwhelming favorite in support. I haven't found that to be the case, as I run in to a pretty diverse group of LMGs.

Someone above seemed to want less Automaticos. Of all the SMGs, I probably encounter them the least. For fast-killing CQC, I'll take the M10.

May I ask what range do you think SMGs are effective but shouldn't be?

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38

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 5:00pm

The SMGs are more effective than they should be between 25-40 meters. At that range, many share BTK with the LMGs. The Hellriegel in particular has more ammo and higher rpm than several LMGs while being controllable and easily bursted effectively. I'd rather see a buff to the LMGs to correct this imbalance, but it is there.

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39

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 7:02pm

BF1: | BF1 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic

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If you're getting killed by someone burst-firing an SMG (increasing its TTK) outside its effective range while you hold down the trigger to get even more accurate, he's better than you.

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40

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 7:35pm

BF1: | BF1 Multi-Weapon Comparison | Symthic

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If you're getting killed by someone burst-firing an SMG (increasing its TTK) outside its effective range while you hold down the trigger to get even more accurate, he's better than you.
My post has nothing to do with skills. It not even about 1v1s. It is about weapon effectiveness. Look at your own link and compare TTK and BTK between 25-40 meters. Then look at where the medic rifles become dominant with TTK. There is simply too much overlap to leave room for the LMGs to have a space to compete. If the weapons are designed to fill range categories from short to long: SMG>LMG>DMR>BA then the current effective ranges are not working as intended.