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11

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 6:02am

SO honestly I think the sweet spot in the scout class needs to be changed/removed. The BF1 TTK is the slowest it has been ever since BFBC2 and I really dont want it to go because one class is proportionally stronger than the rest
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  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

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12

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 6:54am

Scout is right where it should be, it's the other three that need to be better.
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Sunday, June 25th 2017, 7:46am

also let's remember that low ttk is preferred by the masses unless it is for a game akin to overwatch, so that would also bring more people to the game regardless of balance.
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14

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 1:25pm

We had the LOW/HIGH TTK discussion when BF4 CTE started.

BOTH have strengths and weaknesses.

In case of Battlefield, they need to find a middleground. Fast enough to deal with multiple threats, but slow enough to support reaction measures and aim.

But well, aim is less of a reward in bf1.
still playin' Motorstorm

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15

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 2:49pm

I was under the impression the long TTK was a feature and not a bug this time around. I thought DICE was just kinda branching out some and trying something.

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16

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 3:20pm

I was under the impression the long TTK was a feature and not a bug this time around. I thought DICE was just kinda branching out some and trying something.

It is and it could be a good feature.

Sadly it doesn't quite work out with the other parts of BF1. I agree with ducky that it might be a factor in the gadget/grenade spam issue, but more importantly it does not mix well with how most maps and modes are played.

There are no non-64-player conquest servers. Maps have the action quite concentrated and squad spawn is sometimes quite erratic with spawns occurring after being engaged. Thus you will very often face multiple enemies at once, and that not only makes things more difficult with longer TTKs, but especially with the (both relatively and absolutely) smaller magazines. BF4's 900RPM high BTK SMG was the P90 at 50 rounds/mag. The Automatico 1918 has half of that capacity and less accuracy. The MP18 kills slower than any automatic gun in BF4, but its 32 round mag is nice. Too bad you won't be able to use it in many cases because you get overwhelmed. Similar story with the Hellriegel, which also has terribad hipfire, and hipfire is bestfire.

While I think CQL 48 player, probably also with a lot fewer vehicles, and CQ(s) 32p would already greatly ameliorate the perceived TTK issues, reducing the overall BTK might be a different approach that works.

I disagree with ducky, however, on not reducing the Medics' BTK. I think a 2HK up close can be fine. It was in BF3 (DMRs fo days) and it works with revolvers in any BF game. Obviously the rate of fire would have to take a severe hit in most cases, drastically changing the feel of many SLRs, but I think it would overall be for the better. Not only would they remain competitive with the other guns, it would make them far less of a pain to use due to the amount of possible kills per mag being increased substantially for anything stripper-clip fed. I would therefore increase the rate of fire on detachable mag fed guns (1907, 1916, Auto 8 .25) and maybe make the 1907 and Auto 8 .25 slightly more accurate, but leave their BTK as they are.
The stripper-clip fed Cei-Rigotti, 1906, Auto 8 .35 and Mondragon would have their RoF slowed down, but be a 2 hit kill up close with long range maybe being extended, but end damage remaining the same. The RSC would simply receive a small RoF buff.
Spread values would have to follow suit of course.
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Of course, this ignores the non-constant cross-sectional first moment of area across the chest as well as non-constant material properties of the boob; it would be difficult to perform a more detailed analysis (as in, I'd have to have a shape function AND I'd need to derive a function for elastic modulus as a function of lateral breast coordinate) but whatever. It's 2am and I'm lazy.


I always believed science should be very hands on experience.

You should also answer this question I had posed in that thread: Would you be willing to pay your surgeon more if he was going to use a chainsaw for the opening incision of surgery? Clearly using a chainsaw isn't truly suited for surgery but that doesn't really matter. If he's "skilled" enough to be able to use the wrong tools of the trade, he should be rewarded for that skill right?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zormau" (Jun 25th 2017, 3:25pm)


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17

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 3:21pm

Am I the only one who likes it the way it is? High TTK and BTK to me is the only way to effectively balance high ROF weapons. Otherwise they kill at mid range long before their accuracy penalties become apparent. BF1 guns requite consistent accuracy at mid range and weapons like the benet and the huot make this more than possible.

It still seems like people are complaining about getting massacred by mid range weapons between flags when they bring an automatico or shotgun and then saying they are very effective with said weapons when on the flag. What's wrong with that? Most close range weapons are useless on large sections of the map, but if you can survive long enough to get into the flag then you get an advantage. Mid range weapons meanwhile will more easily make it to the flag, being able to deal with the long ranges and clear our the flag from the mid range cover around it but will have a harder time surviving when actually in the capture zone.

As an example, let's take G flag on Empire's edge. Trying to take the parapet and fire at enemies using it as cover is basically useless with close range high ROF guns until you're right on top of them. If you get into the capture area and the mid range player is stupid enough to fight you on the stairs or the little alcove beneath them, then they will lose. In pretty much any other situation around that flag, a mid range weapon will cream a close range one. All they have to do is get into a position overlooking the capture area, kill the high rof player and then move in. From this new position they can safely pick off a respawning automatico user long before they can get in range.

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18

Sunday, June 25th 2017, 5:27pm

Let's not forget the M1903 Experimental (Perdersen Device). DICE has already forgotten to increase its minimum damage to somewhere from 15 to 17.5 along with the rate of fire and maximum damage changes they've made a little while back. As much as I'd like to see a maximum damage buff for most automatic weapons along with a combination of rate of fire, recoil, and spread buffs for semi-automatic rifles, I just know that DICE would completely overlook the Pedersen Device with such changes.

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19

Monday, June 26th 2017, 4:08am

Just watched the video. If anyone remembered, I have made a thread here before, advocating for a decreased TTK with suggestions. And I still stand by that point of view. Any decrease in TTK is a step in the right direction. But there is one thing that Duck did not mention that leads to inconsistencies is the arm multiplier for regular weapons. It absolutely needs to go. It adds nothing to the regular weapons (non-BA) dynamics except inconsistency.

Second, I agree that MP18, ribeyrolles and LMGs need to have one fewer BTK. Before I go into the specifics, my philosophy is to retain the weapons' min BTK within shotgun OHK range, ie ~25m. This is to retain the said weapons' lethality within what a lethal range is to a shotgun. I believe this would lead to a much crisp gunplay.

First, the MP18, which we will use as a "reference" gun. I propose a 33 damage at 8m, dropping off to 15.4 damage at 46m in a straight line, mimicing the damage model of the UMP-45 of BF4. This would give around 25 damage at 25m. Giving it 15.4 end damage also gives it the consistency with leg shots at further ranges. The Ribeyrolles will have 33 damage at 8m but 18 damage at 50m, giving it an advantage in medium range over MP18, as well as a slightly longer damage dropoff, akin to the ACE-52.
Summary:
MP18: 4BTK up to 25m; 5BTK up to 36; 6BTK up to 43m; 7BTK 43m+.
Ribeyrolles: 4BTK up to 30m; 5BTK up to 44m; 6BTK 44m+.

As for the LMGs, I would advocate a uniform damage model across all the LMGs because having an LMG with 1 more BTK with similar fire rates is just unreasonable. My suggestion is 33 damage at 8m, dropping off to 21 damage at 56m in a straight line. It might seem a really long drop off at first, but don't forget that we have the negative SIPS model for the LMGs, and at 40m the 2nd and 3rd bullets have a quite low hit rate, so the practical TTK is not that low at those ranges. Also I think having a transition from 4 to 5 BTK at 40m is a pretty good compromise, at the 5BTK range of MP18 and close to the end of 4BTK of the Ribeyrolles.
Summary:
LMG: 4BTK up to 40m; 5BTK 40m+.

As for the Hellriegel, I feel that Duck's suggestion of keeping it a minimum 5BTK a good one, similar to the PP19 of BF3. Following along that philosophy, I would suggest 24 damage at 27.5m, dropping off to 18 damage at 40.5m. This is done to make Hellriegel a gun that has a higher minimum BTK, but lower maximum BTK, just like the PP19. Along with a reversion of H-rec nerf, I think this would add some variety to the stale assault gunplay currently.
Summary:
Hellriegel: 5BTK up to 36m; 6BTK 36m+.

Due to changes to the MP18, Ribeyrolles and Hellriegel, the damage model of the Automatico has to be adjusted as well. I would propose a 24 damage at 10m, dropping off to 13.5 at 46m. This would approximately result in MP18 BTK+1 in all ranges.
Summary:
Automatico: 5BTK up to 24m; 6BTK up to 35m; 7BTK up to 43m; 8BTK 43m+.

In my opinion, the above damage model changes must be accompanied by appropriate SIPS scaling with fire rates, like current BF4. That the MP18 and Automatico, despite huge difference in fire rates, have the same SIPS of 0.045 is of the same level of (im)balance as the AEK and SCAR-L in BF3.

As for the medic rifles, I would like to say I am in support of buffing them up one tier of fire rates. For example, M8.35 to 450rpm. I would also like to propose a buff to 3BTK all ranges, due to the limited clip size. However, to differentiate it from the slower firing 3BTK SLRs, damage model will be 49 damage at 8m, dropping off to 35 at 50m. So that the only condition for 2BTK in long range is 2HS, making the M8.35 a true skill cannon. To cap the TTK at medium ranges, the H-rec would have to be increased to that it takes some time for the random H-rec to reset and the user cannot spam it at 360rpm and get perfect spread reset AND perfect H-rec reset.

Along the same line, Cei Rigotti and ML1907 would have fire rate of 359. Cei Rigotti's damage would also buffed to 49 damage at 8m, dropping off to 33 damage at 50m. This is to maintain Rigotti's effectiveness until the damage of automatic weapons have dropped off. At the same time, ML1907 would have 49 damage at 8m, dropping off to 24 damage at 50m, reasoning being the same as above.

The Mondragon, M1916 and 1906 would have fire rates of 299, 276 and 359 respectively. With a new damage model of 49 damage at 8m, dropping off to 37 damage at 50m. This is to ensure that at long range, the user would need a headshot and upper body shot for a 2 shot kill. A headshot + a leg shot would NOT kill.

I have put quite a bit of thought into this post, despite the chances of such a radical change in gunplay to "Make Battlefield Gunplay Great Again" is quite slim. I would appreciate any feedback, and I might just copy this to the battlefield live reddit later down the line.

  • "BleedingUranium" started this thread

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20

Monday, June 26th 2017, 4:26am

*snip*


That's a fantastic post, I love almost all of that. I do think MGs would be perfectly fine with slightly different damage models, but otherwise I agree with that. Nice work! :thumbup:
Who has fun, wins.