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21

Friday, May 19th 2017, 3:09pm

I also find that the Model 10 A Slug is much better overall as shotgun. I think he still needs to tweak is algorithm.

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22

Friday, May 19th 2017, 10:53pm

I am curious about what makes the Model 10-A hunter worse in every category then the Sjögren ? Im particularly surprised its worse in the PFTO stances since its typically a 1 shot kill in that range.
The test he has really un-favor M10A Hunter. M10A has worse recoil, spread, recovery, and DPS if you consider target leaves M10A OHK range. Those things combine together put M10A Hunter in the bottom. As for PTFO/mathematic stand, M10A has lowest RPM and worse dispersion than Sjögren which take it down to the bottom again. However, for PTFO/reality, M10A consistent OHK at close range do let it feel more reliable than Sjögren is.

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23

Saturday, May 20th 2017, 11:33am

@Veritable

Tried the recommended PTFO scout loadout for nearly two hours straight. Was NOT disappointed. 100+ kills aquired with it now.

1st off - In TDM & Domination it is fantastic. Seriously, I'm surprised at how freaking effective it was. I did change up the secondary to the No. 3 revolver, because I felt like I needed something that hit a bit harder than the Frommer Stop, but I rarely used a secondary.
2nd - In conquest, you're outclassed by nearly everything while moving between points. But when you're defending a point, it's quite the man stopper.
3rd - Yes the sights suck, but when you're aiming at things under 15m they're fine.

You are giving up one of the main reasons for being a scout, which is taking out targets at longer ranges, but being able to tangle with assaults and medics on a point and win? That's more than worth it in my book.
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

Spoiler Spoiler


General Weapon spreadsheet:
BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
BF4_Gadget_Damage
Interactive Damage Table
bf4_dmg_at_range - Google Sheets
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart

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24

Saturday, May 20th 2017, 12:13pm

@Veritable

Tried the recommended PTFO scout loadout for nearly two hours straight. Was NOT disappointed. 100+ kills aquired with it now.

1st off - In TDM & Domination it is fantastic. Seriously, I'm surprised at how freaking effective it was. I did change up the secondary to the No. 3 revolver, because I felt like I needed something that hit a bit harder than the Frommer Stop, but I rarely used a secondary.
2nd - In conquest, you're outclassed by nearly everything while moving between points. But when you're defending a point, it's quite the man stopper.
3rd - Yes the sights suck, but when you're aiming at things under 15m they're fine.

You are giving up one of the main reasons for being a scout, which is taking out targets at longer ranges, but being able to tangle with assaults and medics on a point and win? That's more than worth it in my book.


These lists have made me try new stuff as well. The Bodeo is quite a good scout finishing pistol once you learn the bullet drop and velocity. It has the extra accuracy over the other pistols but destroys people up to 15m, where the MARS cannot. you really need to be mindful of your engagements as you just can't shoot quick enough when ADS to kill anyone. I have also started using the C93 as it seems to be an upgrade to the MLE due to the reload and better ADS accuracy and muzzle speed. decent follow up pistol as well.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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25

Sunday, May 21st 2017, 2:07am

You can also use the raw Combined Scores in the Google Sheets to check the feasibilties for various "themed" and "historical" loadouts. Look for the scores in Column L in the "aggregate" sheets (the last 6), or look for Column DD in the individual "stance" sheets.

Such as the Western Gunslinger:

Class - Scout
When PTFO - No. 3 Revolver | 444.3614273 pts
When Beyond PTFO - Russian 1895 Trench | 439.8424447 pts
Combined 884.203872 pts

The Mauser Man:

Class - Medic
Primary - Selbstlader M1916 Optical | 485.0822868 pts
Secondary - Taschenpistole M1914 | 480.3893534 pts
Combined 965.4716402 pts

Luger "Toggle-Lock" Man:

Class - Medic
Primary - Selbstlader 1906 Factory | 582.7343104 pts
Secondary - P08 Pistol | 407.5145199 pts
Combined 990.2488303 pts

AEF "Doughboy" Automatic Rifleman:

Class - Support
Primary - BAR 1918 Storm | 725.2947233 pts
Secondary - M1911 | 426.9960859 pts
Combined 1152.2908092 pts

The "MarbleDuck" (though I must note here that I was already advocating the Auto-8 .35 WAY BACK in Oct 13th 2016, analysing Origin Access stats... but Marble is the vocal "public face," so he can have this one :P ):

Class - Medic
When PTFO - Auto revolver | 521.9981168 pts
When Beyond PTFO - Autoloading 8 .35 Marksman | 653.3441808 pts
Combined 1175.3422976 pts

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26

Sunday, May 21st 2017, 3:14pm

In practise I find the Mondragon Storm way superior to the Model 8 .35 overall, also over the Cei-Rigotti.

Mondragon Storm is the most solid SLR in the game
Its a very reliable SLR
It has good dmg
It has decent good rpm
The Ability to 3HK at all ranges is really good
The Ability to 2HK at all ranges is amazing once you are able to do 1 HS first and then a Bodyshot, resulting in a 2HK.
It has the best Iron sights in the game.
It has a good ammo pool of 10/70
It has the fastest reload of any SLR in the game after the 1906 The Ability to have shot many shots and having for example 3 or 2 bullets left and while under fire you can put in a quick 5er clip and return fire immediately.
Everything overall in this gun is just really good

I would argue that the 1906 is basically a better working close quarter SLR variant of the Mondragon.
The 1906 carries on everything we love in the Mondragon, even faster reloads, good damage and 3 BTK at all ranges.
Bonus to the Factory variant being an Optical variant that has Iron sights.

Overal ranking of Sidearms for me is.
1. Auto Revolver for reliable second primary.
2. M1914 Taschenpistole for spam kills.
3. M1911 for style.

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27

Sunday, May 21st 2017, 7:10pm

In practise I find the Mondragon Storm way superior to the Model 8 .35 overall, also over the Cei-Rigotti.

Mondragon Storm is the most solid SLR in the game
Interesting, it makes me wonder what stats about a weapon become more or less important as skill changes. It would be neat to have these rankings tuned according to a personalized 'skill index', though it's probably a pipe dream. For example: if you have a low skill rating, mag size gets a higher weighting because you are inaccurate. After a certain rise in skill it deflates again. After an even further rise in skill it goes back up, because players at this level easily win 1v1s and their lack of multi kill potential really starts to chafe(like Skanic I would imagine).


Now to get even more esoteric, I was thinking of the miffyli kill range density post and it occurred to me that: as well as lethality changing over range, it is likely that competitiveness changes over range. For example: at closer range it seems that, in addition to getting more kills, engagements are more likely to be narrowly won (e.g. I happened to win, but he could've if things had gone even a little bit differently). As we extend into mid range and beyond, it seems that engagements become less 'competitive' and more transactional.

These factors seem to contribute to this effect:

1. Engagements are less likely to begin with simultaneous target acquisition for both parties, one guy sees the other part way into the fight.
2. Engagements are more likely to end before the second party has a chance to retaliate (one-sided kill). Picture killing a sprinting soldier who is unaware of you from afar.
3. The disparity between weapon effectiveness at the engagement range increases (e.g.: sniping an assault at 50 m).
4. Effective ttk is longer, giving players more time to react and break-off the engagement. This incentivizes flight rather than fight, so engagements more often conclude with damage only going one way.
5. Cover is more effective and harder to circumvent. This means that it is more likely for one party to effectively engage from cover, leaving the other at a big disadvantage.
6. Players are harder to see and hear. This means surprise attacks are more likely.

Does anyone else share my impression of decreasing competitiveness over range? If my observation is correct, then even if kill density was flat over all ranges, there should still be a preference for weapons skewed towards close range ability. The differences in weapon competitiveness are most strongly felt in close range because they are less diluted by other engagement factors, like the ones mentioned above. Therefore, my second pipe dream is to have a competitiveness and lethality weighting for each range.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Captain Qwark" (May 21st 2017, 7:18pm)


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28

Monday, May 22nd 2017, 3:34am

In practise I find the Mondragon Storm way superior to the Model 8 .35 overall
I'm actually quite surprised you say this Skanic, haven't seen you mention the Mondragon much before.

For some reason I struggle with the Mondragon Storm, and I think it's because I have a bad habit of small movements, or strafing, most of the time while shooting in ADS, a movement habit from my Quake days. This gun has poor ADS-Moving spread, so I've really struggled with it compared to most other SLR's.

Go make a Mondragon Storm video Skanic and inspire me to try it again :)

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29

Monday, May 22nd 2017, 9:34pm

@W_Heisenberg

Negative SIPS is REALLY POWERFUL at extended ranges.

According to its Spread and Spread "Decrease" values, the BAR Storm returns to its 0.24 Min-Spread at the 7th shot, and then keeps it there until you run out of ammo (I believe it doesn't "overheat" before your magazine is empty).

That means, even at 100m, you have 100% Hitrate from the 7th all the way to your 20th shot, doing 19dmg a pop.

To get to a Target Damage of 100, I have the BAR Storm shoot 9RB, where you can expect ~5.55 / 9 to hit. 105.4599559dmg for your 9RB.

With an RPM of 600, and 60Hz Tickrate for Shooting Mechanics, that takes 0.8833333333s.

Plus, you don't even need to wait for Spread Decrease, because you're already at Min-Spread... so there's nothing to recover from. You can start your next burst right away. Or, if the next target is clumped together, just "walk "the fire onto him. No need to burst... again, you're already at Min-Spread.

This is compared to the 1906 "Factory," which shoots 4RB (for 90.70133474dmg) + 1RB (for 35dmg) to reach the 100dmg Target. Plus Spread Decrease, that takes 1.166666667s, which is already slower.

Further, V-Recoil required from the BAR Storm to achieve that? 2.716deg. From the 1906? 4.75deg. Even the BAR Trench is still lower, 3.88deg.

The BAR gets the job done faster, with lower Recoil, then finally Reloads faster. I'd say that it's "better."


I love the BAR storm, but I have to wonder how realistic 100m kills with it are. I'd have a tough time engaging a player at 100m with the BAR sights, unless he was backlit and facing me standing straight up. That's one reason I use the telescopic, I can aim much more precisely on maps where the enemy blends with the background, like Verdun Heights.

That said, I apparently suck at range estimation in this game. A few times I've stood at what I thought was 5-6m from a flagpole, then pointed at the objective letter and it was more than twice that (underestimated), then get killed in face offs with SMGs at distances that look far out of their effective range (overestimated(

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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30

Monday, May 22nd 2017, 10:17pm

I love the BAR storm, but I have to wonder how realistic 100m kills with it are. I'd have a tough time engaging a player at 100m with the BAR sights, unless he was backlit and facing me standing straight up. That's one reason I use the telescopic, I can aim much more precisely on maps where the enemy blends with the background, like Verdun Heights.

8RB damage output, spread only, bipod NOT deployed, 100m ADS Not Moving, BAR Telescopic vs. BAR Storm: 94.02321229 vs. 86.45995594
9RB: 113.0232123 vs. 105.4599559

Since both cannot expect to kill at 8RB, both need to shoot the same 9RB. And since both have the same bullet and RoF, there is no difference in expected TTK.

Then, V-Recoil you suffer through for that 9RB, Telescopic vs. Storm: 3.88 vs. 2.716

The Storm is easier to use while not losing anything when the goal is to deal 100dmg, even at 100m. So, it is ranked higher. Sights are unfortunately personal preference, so I cannot rank that... but I will note that I have started using the BAR, and I am using the Telescopic. I mean, they are #1 and #2 at 100m ADS Not Moving, 836.7005176 for the Storm vs. 826.8223125 for the Telescopic and Trench. ~10pts difference out of 1000. Both over 50pts ahead of other contenders such as the Auto-8 Marksman and Springfield. Woop-de-doo....

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 22nd 2017, 10:37pm)