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41

Friday, May 19th 2017, 1:47am


This is something I've brought up numerous times now. Vehicle damage (and repair) points need to be based on raw HP, not percentage-of-HP. Instead of 15, it would be 150. Infantry kills are 120 in total for a full kill (100 plus 20 bonus for the kill), and vehicles should be the same, so 1200 for a solo vehicle destroy. 750+ points would be an Assist Counts As Kill, with a 100 assist bonus.

Other teamplay actions should go up to match. Health is pretty good as-is, but spotting, Scout-spotting, suppression, and even ammo points need to go up. A single infantry kill should be one of the lowest-scoring things you can do, not only because a single kill in a BF game is fairly meaningless, but also to help encourage other actions, partly because people don't need encouragement to get kills in an FPS.


Eh?

A single infantry kill is worth way more, and is way harder than healing back 80 HP or giving someone a couple of grenades.

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42

Friday, May 19th 2017, 4:51am

Eh?

A single infantry kill is worth way more, and is way harder than healing back 80 HP or giving someone a couple of grenades.


As I said, that's only part of it, how much various acts both should be or need to be encouraged is also a major factor. Kills are at the very top of the list of things that need little encouragement, it's simply what people do in shooters.
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43

Friday, May 19th 2017, 7:51am

Also there is a very easy way to tell if what you're doing is contributing to your team's success.

You look at the score. If you are winning, in all likelihood you are doing something right.
This is the same justification used by the people who are on the winning team with an 18-4 score as Scout, but #21 on their team, spending the entire match sniping from shitter peak 150m away from any objective where their gadgets weren't of any use. No, you didn't do jack shit to accomplish victory, and if you were on the losing team your KDR and score would be more accurately reflective of your actual contribution to the team. Now replace that Scout with a Support doing nothing but firing mortars, an Artillery Truck or Heavy Tank that refuses to advance, that one guy who stays in the Fortress Cannon at the gimme flag all game, etc

I love the way Sun Tzu is twisted to legitimize running meme setups like Airburst Mortar/Frag Xbow, or Rifle Grenades over health or syringe. Tankmayvin once again hit the nail on the head; your own killing effectiveness may be (and that's a huge "may be") bolstered, and killing is just as important to help achieve victory as supporting teammates. But you also lose gadgets that not only directly buff your own combat effectiveness (ammo, health), but also the fighting effectiveness of your nearby teammates. You're presuming that people replacing "teamplay" (and I put "teamplay" in quotes, because they also serve to benefit you) with "non-teamplay" gadgets are just as effective as accomplishing the same task in a different way, by supposing hypothetical situations where your indirect fire gadgets would've killed an enemy and prevented loss of life in the first place.

What actually happens in regular in-game pubs? I think that's the real question that needs to be asked. Just as much as other "game theories" that actually need to be shown in-game to witness how flawed they are, like the Behemoths being a fighting game "rage" mechanic. Or Ammo 2.0 shown in its fullest, as BU said.

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44

Friday, May 19th 2017, 8:31am

What makes the Behemoth flawed? The only problems with it right now are that most drivers are idiots that don't know how to properly leverage it and that its spawn logic isn't really doing a good job of figuring out how badly it is needed.

Also how does extra damage not benefit your teammates? Especially if they're running healbot set-ups that reduce their damage output. Someone has to make up the loss in damage somehow. There is nothing theoretical about the damage you bring with 2 damage utilities versus a teammate bringing just 1 damage utility and 1 replenishment utility. Or versus a teammate bringing no damage utilities whatsoever.

The point I've been repeatedly trying to make is that damage is a team utility that shouldn't be dismissed just because it doesn't interact directly with teammates. That's just plain silly. Nor is saving a teammate's life the only application of extra damage. The more you send enemies to the respawn screen, the less they are able to get anything done. You create gaps in their map presence that your teammates can exploit.

The part about Sun Tzu was to address VincentNZ basically saying that an action that gets recognition is worth more than an action that goes unrecognized. Recognition is irrelevant to an action's value.



Seeing as how the team with the "useless" backliner is still winning, they aren't detrimental enough to be a problem. Who knows, they might actually be helpful by deleting enemies before they get anything done.

I see a lot of people demanding that blueberries conform the to conventional ideas of how the game should be played (and sure there is nothing wrong with playing conventionally) but I don't see people trying to play around the strategies that the "meme" loadouts are creating.

Sure if the backliner isn't getting anything done, then they're useless. But that's not a problem with the playstyle that's a problem with the player.

For all the complaints leveled against backliners for not helping capture objectives, I'm pretty sure that there are backliners out there bemoaning the frontliners that are too scared to enter a cleared out flag. I know I've felt that way.
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This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (May 19th 2017, 9:12am)


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45

Friday, May 19th 2017, 10:11am

What makes the Behemoth flawed? The only problem with it right now is that most drivers are idiots that don't know how to properly leverage it.

You've already listed one reason why Behemoths are flawed, and wildly inconsistent.

Let me ask another rhetorical question again: How many times have you seen a Behemoth leverage a significant impact on the outcome of the match, like the rage mechanic from fighting games?


Quoted

Also how does extra damage not benefit your teammates? Especially if they're running healbot set-ups that reduce their damage output. Someone has to make up the loss in damage somehow. There is nothing theoretical about the damage you bring with 2 damage utilities versus a teammate bringing just 1 damage utility and 1 replenishment utility. Or versus a teammate bringing no damage utilities whatsoever.

Because you are equating 2 damage utilities with twice the damage effectiveness, or that damage and utility are zero sum choices that have to be consciously made on behalf for your team. We are suddenly supposed to believe that a Support's overall utility is just as useful when he runs Mortar/Xbow instead of Ammo/Mortar or Ammo/Xbow, when Assaults and Scouts are begging for gadget replenishment to do their jobs. (In before "muh Ammo 2.0 was supposed to fix that!")

Realistically, running both Airburst Mortar and Frag Xbow at the same time, or Rifle Grenades over health/syringe, is not going to make that much of a significant difference over getting enemies killed and sent back to respawn. If teammates are running heal/ammo slut setups, they indirectly increase the fighting capabilities of your team. You know what's just as useful or even more so than Rifle Grenades? Getting 1, 2, even 4+ teammates topped off on their HP and reviving them back from the dead so they can fight for you. You know what actually kills everything much more efficiently than running dual Airburst and Fragbow? Topping off Scout flares so you can figure out where enemies are, and giving Assaults more AT resupplies to harass both infantry and tanks.

The notion that pure damage utility is viable because someone else will make up for the lack of replenishment utilities doesn't actually pan out well in reality, because replenishment utility is ALWAYS appreciated and utilized, and damage utility isn't always capable of accomplishing its task meaningfully. This is even worse when Supports run double damage utility gadgets, when 1 is usually already enough to get the job done. The "Missing ammo/health? Sorry, I'm not **that** guy!" concept is what frustrates people who want consistency from classes that are specifically designated to support others, but they're also given the freedom to eschew that completely. Kind of why I think Rifle Grenades and Repair Wrench should be swapped between Support and Medic, Support and Medic being restricted to always carry 1 "teamplay" gadget like in BF3, bringing back Hardline's "interact to receive health/ammo", but these are all ideas I'll elaborate upon later.


Quoted

I don't see people trying to play around the strategies that the "meme" loadouts are creating.

I don't really find "meme" loadouts that aggravating to play against, since the people who run them are mostly bad players, or they're being used in response to their team losing badly. It's more playing around them when they're on your team is is my beef, for reasons I've already said.


Quoted

Seeing as how the team with the "useless" backliner is still winning, they aren't detrimental enough to be a problem. Who knows, they might actually be helpful by deleting enemies before they get anything done.

The original argument was over the useless backliner "doing something right," not being "detrimental enough to be a problem." They're not the same thing.

I don't think dingleberries or anyone should be told how to play the game. In fact, that's one of the biggest reasons why the Battlefield franchise is fun. You want to play hard and run and gun between objectives? Go ahead. You want to backline and snipe/mortar at a leisurely pace? Feel free to do that. You want to spend the entire round focusing on ruining the game for those people who do nothing but snipe/mortar from shitter peak, sit on a hill with the tank, or squat the gimme flag's Fortress Gun, objectives and team score be damned? I do that all the time, more than I care to admit.

What people don't get a free pass on is grossly overstating their actual usefulness and impact on a game.


Quoted

Sure if the backliner isn't getting anything done, then they're useless. But that's not a problem with the playstyle that's a problem with the player.

For all the complaints leveled against backliners for not helping capture objectives, I'm pretty sure that there are backliners out there bemoaning the frontliners that are too scared to enter a cleared out flag. I know I've felt that way.

You seem to think that I'm against backlining in general. There's nothing inherently wrong with backlining, you're confusing backlining that actually makes a meaningful impact vs terrible players that are too scared to do anything. Or that backlining and frontlining are mutually exclusive and can never be done together in a single game or lifetime.

If there's a tank or Scout that provides overwatch for his squad across multiple objectives by keeping an eye on spawnpoints, that's backlining.

If there's a tank or Scout that absolutely refuses to budge from the mountain overlooking C on Empire's Edge the entire game, that's also backlining. Now which player is more useful?

And if a frontliner is too scared to enter even contested flags that backliners are watching... then they're not frontliners, are they? Or if the backliner is complaining that nobody wants to enter an empty flag, what's stopping him from capturing the flag himself? It's hilarious how Artillery Trucks and Scouts openly complain in chat how their team is too stupid to capture points, but they themselves are allergic to flags like Genji to the payload.

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46

Friday, May 19th 2017, 10:22am

>Mfw Scouts and Artillery Trucks are meant to cap flags
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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47

Friday, May 19th 2017, 10:45am

How many times have you seen a Behemoth leverage a significant impact on the outcome of the match, like the rage mechanic from fighting games?


I've witnessed it happen in the Beta back when CQ wasn't shit.

Am I to understand you think the Behemoth needs more influence for it to achieve its design goal?

Don't forget that even if the mechanic is present, it is up to the players to properly use it.

Rage in a fighting game won't help you if you still fail to land damage.

Because you are equating 2 damage utilities with twice the damage effectiveness


No, I'm equating it with more damage. I didn't give an exact number.

(In before "muh Ammo 2.0 was supposed to fix that!")


Yes.

Realistically, running both Airburst Mortar and Frag Xbow at the same time, or Rifle Grenades over health/syringe, is not going to make that much of a significant difference over getting enemies killed and sent back to respawn. If teammates are running heal/ammo slut setups, they indirectly increase the fighting capabilities of your team. You know what's just as useful or even more so than Rifle Grenades? Getting 1, 2, even 4+ teammates topped off on their HP and reviving them back from the dead so they can fight for you. You know what actually kills everything much more efficiently than running dual Airburst and Fragbow? Topping off Scout flares so you can figure out where enemies are, and giving Assaults more AT resupplies to harass both infantry and tanks.


Do you mean the damage utilities are not strong enough to be more attractive than replenishment items?

Guess some buffs are in order then.

I never said that replenishment isn't good either. I'm simply pointing out that people who think damage is not a useful utility or are equipped to statpad without concern for teammates are wrong.

The notion that pure damage utility is viable because someone else will make up for the lack of replenishment utilities doesn't actually pan out well in reality, because replenishment utility is ALWAYS appreciated and utilized, and damage utility isn't always capable of accomplishing its task meaningfully.


And I can try to resupply/heal idiots but that doesn't make them any more likely to succeed.

Replenishing people only for them to die before they achieve anything is meaningless. Kind of like dumb Behemoth drivers.

In that case I'd rather bring more damage and do their share of damage as well. Something I am all to familiar with in GW2 when pugzerging.

I don't really find "meme" loadouts that aggravating to play against, since the people who run them are mostly bad players, or they're being used in response to their team losing badly. It's more playing around them when they're on your team is is my beef, for reasons I've already said.

If there's a tank or Scout that provides overwatch for his squad across multiple objectives by keeping an eye on spawnpoints, that's backlining.

If there's a tank or Scout that absolutely refuses to budge from the mountain overlooking C on Empire's Edge the entire game, that's also backlining. Now which player is more useful?


I'm not talking about playing against them I'm talking about playing with them.

If I'm in an Artillery Truck or Scout kit ranging enemies down before they are a threat to you, I'd greatly appreciate it if you did your job and capped a flag.



You seemed to be pretty against backlining by providing an example of a Scout going 18-4 being 21st place on the scoreboard.

But here's the thing: just because he's low on the scoreboard doesn't mean he's useless. The 18 kills he has could've been extremely important in protecting flags.

Furthermore, the moriz strat where you camp inside the enemy gimme all game has extremely low point yield. But the constant disruption is of huge value. He'd place low on the scoreboard but he did quite a bit for the team.
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Friday, May 19th 2017, 11:13am

Well, I have had two rounds where the behemoth turned the round, one was in beta and one was in the start of the year. It is a perfect example, of a feature that could be a gamechanger but fails because of the player being a human being. It is used as a crutch to get safe kills, to bolster your stats. You get into it not to change the tide but to for your own good. I am definite that DICE designed it this way, too, otherwise the behemoth would be broken. It probably works better now than in the beta, as you do get a huge buff to kills along with flags taken, by the way.

Teamplay that is not recognised as such is not teamplay at all, people count a kill as a kill and not as a ticket. You look at your K/D ratio, not at your Ticket/Ticket ratio. Players do not think in these terms, and there the Devs need to chime in if they want to promote it, and there recognition and reward is key. Also incentivizing the obvious teamplay actions and that includes capturing flags, flanking thinking beyond the zerg etc.
And that has nothing to do with winning at all, winning is a direct product of the zerg-enforcing conquest system that also is caused by only a few players in key positions. In BF3 one player in a jet would win rounds, but that surely tells you nothing about teamplay. It is roughly the same with the tanks in BF1, if you have the better tankers your odds greatly increase, teamplay only has a limited effect on the round's outcome.

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Friday, May 19th 2017, 12:20pm

>Mfw Scouts and Artillery Trucks are meant to cap flags

Trigger warning in case this actually blows your mind, but sometimes situations arise where players are presented situations that they're ill-equipped to handle. Which happens a lot in BF1.

Is that now a legitimate excuse to blame teammates and continue to play passively away from flags? Are Scouts and Arty Trucks incapable of pressing W and capping due to some gamebreaking bug?



I've witnessed it happen in the Beta back when CQ wasn't shit.

Am I to understand you think the Behemoth needs more influence for it to achieve its design goal?

Don't forget that even if the mechanic is present, it is up to the players to properly use it.

Rage in a fighting game won't help you if you still fail to land damage.


Rage is a fighting game mechanic left to an individual player, in a 1v1 environment. SF4 Ultra Meter and Behemoths don't deserve comparison, which brings us back to my original point that it's flawed to assume both of them work the same way.

And no, I don't think the Behemoth needs more influence or should even be in the game right now. If Behemoths fail to serve a meaningful purpose, especially since the original Beta CQL scoring system was changed, then it should be removed. That's not going to happen unfortunately because of Sunken Cost fallacy reasons.


Quoted

I never said that replenishment isn't good either. I'm simply pointing out that people who think damage is not a useful utility or are equipped to statpad without concern for teammates are wrong.

And I can try to resupply/heal idiots but that doesn't make them any more likely to succeed.

Replenishing people only for them to die before they achieve anything is meaningless. Kind of like dumb Behemoth drivers.

In that case I'd rather bring more damage and do their share of damage as well. Something I am all to familiar with in GW2 when pugzerging.

Even if you are playing with complete shitters, the assumption that you'll make up for their damage output over their 10 second lifespan displays an incredibly warped sense of reality to say the least.

Guess who else makes this assumption, and runs pure damage Support or Rifle Grenade Medic off of that? The complete shitters you're complaining about. This creates an incredibly stupid self-fulfilling environment where people do die in 10-15s from their spawn without accomplishing anything, while the teammates that aren't retarded and in desperate need of replenishment suffer for it.

Let me put this in an analogy to a game that you admire. Say, if Zenyatta had the option of replacing his Shift ability from a teammate orb heal to a self-applied speed/jump buff that also increased his orb rate of fire. Suddenly, you have a Support hero that no longer Supports. The same concept applies to BF's Support running double damage utility gadgets. I know that you've previously argued that Support and Medic should not be rigidly expected to be ammo and heal/revive slaves, and should be looked as a base class that allows diverse options like Indirect Fire or Grenadiers. I believe in the opposite, or at least letting them have the option of running "unconventional" gadget setups while still allowing them to replenish teammates in a limited ability (Hardline interactions).



Quoted

If I'm in an Artillery Truck or Scout kit ranging enemies down before they are a threat to you, I'd greatly appreciate it if you did your job and capped a flag.

What exactly is stopping you from taking initiative and capturing a flag, if nobody else can for whatever reason? Predestined class roles? Being afraid of dying while accomplishing the task? Potential failure? All rubbish reasons for avoiding the flag and blaming your teammates instead.

It's especially bad when some tank drivers are so risk averse, that they don't want to lose their precious vehicle in the process of capping. You can park yourself to face the fairly predictable spawnpoints of contested flags. If you have teammates backing you up, the Assaults will have to pick between shooting them or exploding you. And before tankmayvin chimes in and says that tank farming outside an objective is an effective strategy, that's not what I'm criticizing. But if your goal is to actually capture an enemy flag and nobody else will, you need to point the finger at yourself before others.



Quoted

You seemed to be pretty against backlining by providing an example of a Scout going 18-4 being 21st place on the scoreboard.
But here's the thing: just because he's low on the scoreboard doesn't mean he's useless. The 18 kills he has could've been extremely important in protecting flags.

Furthermore, the moriz strat where you camp inside the enemy gimme all game has extremely low point yield. But the constant disruption is of huge value. He'd place low on the scoreboard but he did quite a bit for the team.

How is a bushwookie who spends a 30 minute game on top of mountain away from a nearby objective, who could care less if it's capped by the enemy or not as long as he gets kills, comparable to someone who squats inside the enemy's gimme all game and is responsible for them constantly being -1 on an "easily" acquired flag? ?(

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Friday, May 19th 2017, 1:08pm

Wat. You honestly expect Scouts and sniper tanks to cap flags where they are the least equipped to deal with close range opposition? Gee, and I thought long range tools were meant for, well, long range. Silly me. Thanks for the clarification, Ritobadsu. Next time I'm a Scout or Artillery Truck I'll be sure crowd flag radii where my weapons are most potent. Glad you're here to correct my logic.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

Source code

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho