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NoctyrneSAGA

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31

Thursday, May 18th 2017, 11:51am

Well, for "farming" kills. That is personal gain, you enhance your own killing potential at the cost of direct teamplay value. Many here argue that the act of killing is a teamwork oriented act, but I can not agree with that assessment, due to human nature. There are people who jump into vehicles to turn the round and start winning but mostly it is a way to boost stats. Oh people like winning, but if you are doing good and have a high K/D that is usually more preferable than having many points or winning the round.

It is similar with the Limpet and the Mortar if you do not have ammo equipped. Your mindset will be to increase your killing potential for personal gain, not because you can then turn the round for your team. This is how you use the limpet, too. I guess you would think twice about risking your life to damage a full health tank, but you are more ready to throw it onto a damaged tank, because the point and kill gain is huge.
With the mortar you are also relative safe in using because it is indirect and ranged, so you use it to get kills our of an advantageous position. Clearing a flag or saving teammates is just a byproduct, and it can not be measured.


If you're going to pretend teammates killing enemies before they can injure you is selfish because they're really just after +1 kills, then I might as well go ahead and claim that teammates heal you because they want +10 points and not because they actually enjoy seeing you healthy.

There is no such thing as a "selfless" act in this game by virtue of rewards whether it be kills or points. Pretty much everything the game wants to encourage a player to do has some sort of reward tied to it.

Even if the motivation is killing people off a point, guess what that opens up for your team? An opportunity to capture safely.

Your "selfishness" helped the team. Not to mention that there are people out there who actually save teammates.



How about intentionally letting players take damage and die just so I can heal or revive them?

Seems to me that killing the enemy before the teammate died would've been very helpful too. Especially if you are not a Medic.



The Limpet is also going to experience far more success on a critically injured tank than a healthy one simply for the reason that a healthy tank has a much easier time avoiding the explosive.

It's much easier for the Support player to attach the mine on a distracted or immobilized enemy, the latter of which really only happens when the target is critically injured.



There is more to teamwork than throwing replenishment items at each other.

There is more to playing the objective than sitting inside a capture zone.

I personally run Crossbow Frag and Mortar Airburst on one of my loadouts. Do I farm kills with it? Hell yeah.

Does that mean I'm not contributing to my team? Seeing as how my teammates get to capture undisturbed, I'm having a hard time seeing why it isn't valuable.



It's the same with vehicles. Enemy overrunning your friendlies on a flag?

Completely obliterating the opposition with a Bomber or FT cannon sounds pretty helpful here.

I don't think the guys about to die would complain either. You saved their fucking asses.



Or how about that tank rolling up?

Wow, I guess I'm so selfish choosing the Tank Hunter Landship or Assault class because I want to make sure enemy tanks don't destroy my teammates.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (May 18th 2017, 11:56am)


VincentNZ

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32

Thursday, May 18th 2017, 12:05pm

I never said that selfish is inherently bad, first of all.

Yeah there is more to it than just healing, reviving and resupplying. But these are the teamwork actions that can be directly counted. I am sure you agree since you like numbers so much.

So why do you run the Airburst and the Frag? Is it because you think this is the best loadout for your team? Or is it the best for you?Do your teammates notice that you might be able to indirectively or passively help them, or are the blueberries totally unaware of you? What about the guys running at you with a blinking ammo symbol over their head? Didn't you also complain that it was so hard to find a crate in any map and mode? So are you helping the team because you go 25-5 or are you only thinking that you are helping?
Teamwork is a mindset, and should be incentivised and directly seen and/or rewarded. When you say that you are a true teamplayer I would not doubt that, although your value can not be measured at all with that loadout. So would you say that your bomber gunner or FT guy's main purpose is to help the team? Is he thinking with every hit and kill about his teammates that he saved on the ground? Or might the pilot be the true teamplayer here, because he allows another guy to get kills? Just stuff to think about when you talk about gadgets and choices.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, May 18th 2017, 12:38pm

You claimed that higher killing potential comes at the cost of teamplay value.

I showed you why that is not the case.

You have previously insisted that players only choose vehicles to pad their stats.

I have pointed out that replenishment items can do the same.



Any time I pick a kit or loadout, I do it because I notice it's something my team needs.

If I notice we need a lot of firepower to clear out an objective prone to be filled with players AND I am confident that the blueberries are willing to dogpile the objective, then I'd be stupid to not pick a loadout with the appropriate tools for what I think the team needs.

If I notice the blueberries are having a bout of cowardice and not willing to get on the point, then I'll choose a loadout more suitable for sustaining on it.

As a part of the overall team, what helps me the most in playing the objective will by extension help the rest of the team whether it be killing enemies off points or reviving downed teammates.

Recognition of what I'm doing is irrelevant. It is the result that matters.



Ammo 2.0 would've made the lack of a crate a non-issue.

Although it's hard to imagine why teammates would be expending ammo if I've already eliminated all the targets in the area.

If I go 25-5 and the teammates capture the objective safely then yes I helped.

If I went 25-5 and my teammates kept dying then I completely failed.



Whether the gunner is thinking about the teammates he is saving is irrelevant.

All that matters is that he saves them.

The pilot alone is fairly useless so pretending the gunner doesn't have teamplay value in a Bomber is ridiculous.



As for these:

But these are the teamwork actions that can be directly counted.

Clearing a flag or saving teammates is just a byproduct, and it can not be measured.


Just because it cannot be measured does not mean it has no value.



Of course, that is not to say there isn't a measurement for these unsung hero-players because there is.

They win.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

  • "Dantheminigunfox" started this thread

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34

Thursday, May 18th 2017, 1:46pm

Seeing many of the responses concerning the debate of 'selfish' and 'non-selfish' actions gives the impression that the thread is deviating from its original purpose. On the flipside, such debate is evident that it would be much better that both sides can be catered for by requisite game design.

As such, here is a short revised version of the system

  • Standard: Box (Button 3)
  • Gadget 1: Any other Gadget (Button 4)
  • Gadget 2: Any other Gadget (Button 5 OR Double tap Button 4, Doom 2 style)
  • Hold Q for Pouch <--------- Context Sensitive
  • Hold F For Repair or As Melee weapon (Support) <--------- Context Sensitive
  • Hold F For Revive (Medic) <--------- Context Sensitive



Naturally, Assault and Scout do not have boxy boxes and will not require button 3 to be bound to a box. The question is, does the system allow the Assault and Scout to equip 3 gadgets or should they just remain at 2. I do not yet have an answer to that as would like to see some thoughts on it. Like this;


Assault;
  • Slot 3 = Absent or Replaced*
  • Slot 4 = Any Other Gadget
  • Slot 5 = Any Other Gadget

*In my opinion it should be replaced as some [mostly] defensive AT weapons such as AT mine and arguably dynamite are not as common as AT Nades and Rocket gun. The same is applicable to scout but for different reasons, mainly the fact that scout gadgets are much less useful than the other classes (save for flare and periscope). Who uses the head decoy...



Achievements from this system;
  • Support and Medic will ALWAYS provide a consistent role to other players. All base non offensive player to player interactions are present at all times
  • Remove false choice in which players will not usually choose the Repair tool or ommit Medpacks
  • Encourage new tactics, e.g Picking off players with SLR, smoking via Rifle Nade SMK and reviving downed squad/team mates under smoke cover.
  • Potentially enhance other classes, e.g. Scout with access to Periscope, Flare and Shield, the latter can be used by bipod LMGs, which is a surprisingly powerful tactic.

Would also be interesting if the Hardline grab ammo/hp from teamate system return in conjunction with such (hypothetical) changes.

As a side note;

I like to compare this concept to Killing Floor 2. For those unaware, this is a wave based shooter featuring 10 classes. Every single gadget (in the game it is a perk) that directly resupplies teammates with ammo or grenades was HARDLY EVER selected, and this is in a game were I would argue such resources are much more valuable. What did the devs do? They made resupplies as a STANDARD feature of the class and let players choose between skills which benefit their offensive effectiveness instead.

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35

Thursday, May 18th 2017, 2:18pm

Killing at a high rate per minute, while not dying a lot is hugely beneficial to the overall outcome of the round because of the low tick rate of flags. Selfish or not, killers contribute to wins.

The issue really isn't selfish-vs non seflish, or even "solo" versus "team interaction". It's that some gadgets are shit compared to others: rifle grens vs syringe or healing item, for eg. Healing/reviving is a points mine compared to getting the occasional RG kill.

  • "Dantheminigunfox" started this thread

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Thursday, May 18th 2017, 3:23pm

Killing at a high rate per minute, while not dying a lot is hugely beneficial to the overall outcome of the round because of the low tick rate of flags. Selfish or not, killers contribute to wins.

The issue really isn't selfish-vs non seflish, or even "solo" versus "team interaction". It's that some gadgets are shit compared to others: rifle grens vs syringe or healing item, for eg. Healing/reviving is a points mine compared to getting the occasional RG kill.
Yes, high KD is characteristic of good players, that is a non-debate. The idea of selfish and non-selfish play is a not the issue its the false choice on situational gadgets.

The Rifle Nade Vs Medpack/Syringe selection is the most concerning and the initial reason why I had this idea.


It is a question of 'Do I choose this situational item over the syringe?'. And the answer is usually no.

I do not think the Rifle Grenades are poor gadgets in the sense that they have no use.
  • Rifle grenade FRG is perfect for clearing out choke points due to its bounce and ability to fire multiple shots quickly, e.g. Rush on Monte Grappa Indoor Bunkers. With good practice, it can also be used against snipers even at distances of 100m+
  • Rifle Grenade SMK could augment the choice of SMK grenades and give a medic the potential to produce copious amounts of cover in open maps such as Sinai and Seuz. Also makes covering downed team mates with smoke a more accessible tactic since grenade regeneration was deemed as the anti-christ by the general community.
  • Rifle Grenade HE can help out in taking vehicles, particularly low HP ones with its ability to fire 4 shots in quick succession.


Adding to the effectiveness of Rifle Grenade, a Support player who always has pouch on hand can instantly resupply Rifle Grenade, further amplifying its effectiveness.

(Bad Company 2) As mentioned earlier, it is similar to choosing Magnum ammo (+1 Bullet TTK generally) over EXPLMK2 (Buff to rockets, etc).
The latter is very efficient against tanks (and also annoying 40mm and M2 CG spam)
It is very difficult not to pick Magnum ammo as the TTK advantage is simply to great, especially on weapons like the M1 Garand with its 8 round magazine.

VincentNZ

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Thursday, May 18th 2017, 3:31pm

You claimed that higher killing potential comes at the cost of teamplay value.

I showed you why that is not the case.

You have previously insisted that players only choose vehicles to pad their stats.



I hate it when people refer to Sun Tzu. I've met too many people that quote the Art of War, Macchiavelli and Clausewitz and never put it into perspective. These books are part of my work and refer to statesmanship and warfare, yet somehow I meet people that live their lives by it. I grant that they do display an awful lot of common sense and that their texts are highly applicable in their frame of time and in the topics discussed. To put it into a metaphor: Sun Tzu would not play Battlefield, Mr. Macchiavelli would not have a job in corporate middle management and Miyamoto Musashi would not collect novelty swords.

You do confuse teamplay with winning. I am sure tankmayvin decides rounds and his intention to man the tank is likely the same. Personally I man the tank to use it as a crutch in the times the game frustrates me. I do manage to get quite a bunch of kills usually on my own and certainly contribute to the team more than many others, but even if that is a deciding factor in winning, I would be very far off from actual teamplay. Do you think the trenchfighter guys that moved onto the Attack Plane ever cared about winning or how much they contributed? It is the mindset that decides if an action is teamplay or not.

See, a game with 64 players in BF1 so dynamic and abstract that a player can never really tell if what he is doing is good for the team, or bad, or if it even matters at all. Also motivations play a huge role, we all play for fun, but that has a different meaning for everyone. Some play to win, some for recreation and some for mischief. So in order to get something concrete out of such an abstract scenario people will look for personal performance. That is the player's imperative and it will not change until devs come up with new ways to incentivize teamplay actions by telling you that you perform these and rewardign you for it.
Getting points is alright for resupplying, healing and reviving, but getting 14 points for putting a rocketgun or a mortar shell on a tank? Nah. Then it is easier to shoot at the guy that is no real threat to anybody for 60-150 points. Why is there not a point multiplier for guys that shoot at a vehicle? Why do Assaults do not get assists count as kill for a destroyed tank if they put three rocket guns into it? Why do you not get more points if the guy asked you for ammo or if you spotted the revived teammate? Stuff like this would surely help.

Yeah increasing gadget slots and/or making certain tools mandatory would help, but it could also just mask the "problem" that players play for themselves.

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Thursday, May 18th 2017, 4:13pm

What about creating gadget slot categories? One offensive/defensive, one class specific, one support/teamplay? Each gadget would be categorized and only equip-able in the corresponding slot.

I posted (basically) that on the first page. :D

Assault
Slot 1: Rocket Gun, AT Grenades
Slot 2: Dynamite, Mines

Medic:
Slot 1: Syringe
Slot 2: Rifle Grenade, Health Pack, Health Box

Support
Slot 1: Limpet, Crossbow, Mortar
Slot 2: Repair Wrench, Ammo Pack, Ammo Box

Scout
Slot 1: K-Bullets, Tripwire Bombs, Shield, Decoy
Slot 2: Flare Gun, Periscope
Or not. You assigned current gadgets to 2 fixed slots in a way that makes sense to you. I suggested an overhaul of the entire system to include 3 slots - each of a distinct category to ensure there are viable choices of gadgets in each area so everyone always has either an offensive or defensive gadget, a class specific gadget, and a teamplay boosting gadget. The whole idea of classes and gadgets is not well thought out and structured at the moment. The devs should be looking to other games with class abilities for inspiration to create more meaningful gameplay, interaction, and balance. There are plenty of RPG type games that do a better job with structuring classes and abilities. With the suggested system, you'd have survivability, utility, and synergy built in to every class. This would add variety and player freedom while making each choice within a category more meaningful.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, May 18th 2017, 9:15pm

I hate it when people refer to Sun Tzu. I've met too many people that quote the Art of War, Macchiavelli and Clausewitz and never put it into perspective. These books are part of my work and refer to statesmanship and warfare, yet somehow I meet people that live their lives by it. I grant that they do display an awful lot of common sense and that their texts are highly applicable in their frame of time and in the topics discussed. To put it into a metaphor: Sun Tzu would not play Battlefield, Mr. Macchiavelli would not have a job in corporate middle management and Miyamoto Musashi would not collect novelty swords.


It doesn't make my point about whether people recognize your contribution any less true though.

You do confuse teamplay with winning.


Except the team that performs kills, heals, spots, resupplies, etc. will win vs a team that doesn't?

Teamplay is a huge part of winning in Battlefield.

That includes the most basic interaction of a shooting game which is shooting enemies.

See, a game with 64 players in BF1 so dynamic and abstract that a player can never really tell if what he is doing is good for the team, or bad, or if it even matters at all.


Are you now saying that countable teamwork actions are irrelevant?

Also there is a very easy way to tell if what you're doing is contributing to your team's success.

You look at the score. If you are winning, in all likelihood you are doing something right.

This statement just seems to imply you have difficulty reading the situation on the map.

Yeah increasing gadget slots and/or making certain tools mandatory would help, but it could also just mask the "problem" that players play for themselves.


Again, the motivation does not really matter. What matters is the result.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (May 18th 2017, 9:21pm)


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Friday, May 19th 2017, 12:32am

You do confuse teamplay with winning.


I was just going to say this. Winning or not is entirely irrelevant to this teamplay discussion, or looking at teamplay in general.

Players interacting to provide items, tools, abilities, and other support to bolster each others' weaknesses or needs is what's relevant, not "players doing actions that help get the 'Victory' text message". Sure the team that's better at the former is more likely to win, but it's still a separate tangent, a side note.


Quoted

Getting points is alright for resupplying, healing and reviving, but getting 14 points for putting a rocketgun or a mortar shell on a tank? Nah. Then it is easier to shoot at the guy that is no real threat to anybody for 60-150 points. Why is there not a point multiplier for guys that shoot at a vehicle? Why do Assaults do not get assists count as kill for a destroyed tank if they put three rocket guns into it? Why do you not get more points if the guy asked you for ammo or if you spotted the revived teammate? Stuff like this would surely help.


This is something I've brought up numerous times now. Vehicle damage (and repair) points need to be based on raw HP, not percentage-of-HP. Instead of 15, it would be 150. Infantry kills are 120 in total for a full kill (100 plus 20 bonus for the kill), and vehicles should be the same, so 1200 for a solo vehicle destroy. 750+ points would be an Assist Counts As Kill, with a 100 assist bonus.

Other teamplay actions should go up to match. Health is pretty good as-is, but spotting, Scout-spotting, suppression, and even ammo points need to go up. A single infantry kill should be one of the lowest-scoring things you can do, not only because a single kill in a BF game is fairly meaningless, but also to help encourage other actions, partly because people don't need encouragement to get kills in an FPS.
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