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  • "Dantheminigunfox" started this thread

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Tuesday, May 16th 2017, 10:56pm

Improving class role effectiveness: Increasing the availability of both fundamental player to player interactions as well as situational gadgets. (Suggestion)

Not a particular complicated subject matter but tried to be as exhaustive as possible :P. Initially posted on reddit but as I am new to that system, I messed it up and it disappeared Would much rather hear opinions from this forum anyway.

Firstly, what is a fundamental player to player interaction?
This is any action that involves the interaction between one player and another/or a group. These interactions are generally limited to reviving, repairing and receiving ammunition.

Reason:
My logic to this is that it a team conscious player will seldom pick something like Rifle Grenades over either the Medic bag/kit . My squad and I usually pick them in exceptional circumstances, most notably the indoor telegraph stations on Grappa Base 3 and Final + Argonne Final Base. Other players will omit gadgets for increased personal effectiveness, e.g. Limpet charge + Mortar AIR (Observed this frequently with support players).

Examples (Used keyboard bindings, not familiar with controller)

Medic:
  • Medic Bag (Permanent, Bound to 3)
  • Medical Syringe* (Permanent, Bound to 4)
  • Extra Gadget Slot (Optional, Bound to 5)
The small pouch will simply be a throw able item accessible by using the already existing function of Q, which throws the pouch a max of 20m to any player. The pouch could potentially not exist as an equitable item in the same way as a grenade is only accessible via hotkey.

Support:
  • Ammo Box (Permanent, Bound to 3)
  • Repair tool* (Permanent, Bound to 4)
  • Extra Gadget (Bound to 5)
There is less of an issue with support as it only has one fundamental player to player interaction, and that is giving out ammo. In light of the new grenade changes, I consider the support to have two functions now; Giving out ammo and giving it out grenades. The latter is ONLY possible via the large box, hence diversifying the support classes’ player to player role. The improved repair tool availability will also cement their role as a vehicle healer.

Alternative to Syringe and Repair tool mechanics, a context sensitive approach
Now I am aware that consoles in particular are limited to controllers and as such have tight key binding potential. To alleviate this, both the Syringe and Repair tool could become context sensitive actions. But in reality, there is no reason to switch to a different gadget just to revive or repair something. Just pressing E or any other key to revive someone is acceptable. This is also the case with the repair tool in which I would argue that such a system would make this highly situational object, a constant tool in a support’s players inventory. This would tie in nicely with the upcoming turret repair system, in which stationary guns like the AA cannon can be ‘revived’ by repairing them.


As a side note, having the syringe being a context sensitive action can bypass the current bug where the aim point on a syringe can be blocked by bushes, flooring, incorrent planetary alignment etc. I am not sure if this would work but it seems that the issues with reviving come from downed friendlies being entirely client sided and having them clip through geometry potentially making them unrevivable as the aim point is blocked, much like it would a projectile.

Alternative to Pouch mechanics, re-using the Q key
Now medic pouches are crucial to many an aggressive medic’s play style as they heal whilst on the move. I am not going into if this is a good mechanic or not, however unless key binding on controllers is an issue, it would be ideal if the medic pouch were still a throw able item without the need for a friendly to be present. Perhaps holding down Q and throwing the pouch on the ground would satisfy this requirement. Ammo pouches could function similarly.

Slight UI changes
On a slightly unrelated note, it would be ideal if the recharge time for Ammo Pouches, Syringes and Ammo crates were displayed on a players first person UI as well as a player’s 3rd person above-head icon, the latter being there to avoid players staring at each other until there gadgets regenerate.
This is ofcourse just an idea I have had for quite a long time and one that would assist in making player to player actions more consistent.

Applicability to Assault and Scout?
In the same vain, I would argue that the Assault Class and Recon class could have some default gadgets, particularly the Trench Periscope and spotting flare for the scout. The Assault class could have AT rocket gun and AT nades as default, however these are not exactly DIRECT player to player interactions.


Positive Implications
  • Support and medic will ALWAYS have the capability of reviving, healing, resupplying both ammunition and grenades.
  • Highly situational (and often completely absent) gadgets such as the repair tool and Rifle grenade Smoke may rise significantly in prevalence.
  • Potently gives medic to permanently have some defense against tanks in the form of Rifle Grenade HE as well as contributing to taking down one.
Negative Implications
  • Issues with grenade spam caused by the current Rifle grenade systems as they will become very prevalent, as was the case with the 40MM grenade launchers in Bad Company 2, all be it those were much worse as they detonated on impact and could OHK in cqc.
  • Potentially leads to a feeling of ‘less customisation & casual’, which would be unfounded in my opinion
  • RIP smashing sniping wookies with hammer. (Potentially)

VincentNZ

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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 1:43am

I do agree with the concept of choice, but I am annoyed by people who play a medic and have the grenade and bag equipped just for personal gain. Same with the limpet and Mortar for Support. I really think this is a bad choice because the drawbacks are not personal.
At the same time, I still want the guys that use the rifle grenade wisely not to be penalized too much. That is why I liked the BF3 system, where the Defib (ammo crate, too, right?) were mandatory and you chose if you wanted to extend your role in firefights or if you wanted to heal yourself and others. For support you would then have the choice which gadget you would use alongside the crate.

Adding another gagdet slot is a fine idea for maximum efficiency, but it would need quite some rebalancing, and it would eliminate the choices, including the choice to be the dick. And yes spam would increase, but well the game is spammy as is, so...

As for the repair tool which is currently simply not seen at all, wasn't it even you that proposed to make it a class-specific melee weapon? I think this is an excellent solution to actually have repairs at all. With the dominance and immobility of tanks in this game though, it might lead to a meta of three guys repairing the tank that is farming infantry from 150m away with no chance of ever killing it.

All in all, I am for incentivizing players to team-oriented use of gadgets, but I also firmly believe that they should be limited. Choice is a decent mechanic. In any case it is good to see people thinking about this kind of stuff.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 3:02am

If you open up a third "optional" gadget slot, what point is there in not bringing it?

This idea pretty much drastically increases the power of Medic and Support.

There is more to teamwork than tossing replenishment items at each other.

Destroying and Spotting enemies still counts as player interaction. Unless you think enemies are not players.
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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 5:27am

I love the concept and intentions, though if this is a little complex (certainly for BF1 at this point), a much simpler solution would be to have more general restrictions for each gadget slot.

Every gadget should be assigned to either Slot 1 or Slot 2, but not both. Similar to weapon presets, this would help funnel players into useful choices; Mortar & Limpet shouldn't be a thing, but Ammo & Ammo really shouldn't either. No one runs the latter, but it's still and example of a possible and dumb setup. This would also help with balancing certain problem or potentially-problem combinations, either that are too powerful as they are, or are especially powerful together, and in that sense preventing either from being buffed.


Assault
Slot 1: Rocket Gun, AT Grenades
Slot 2: Dynamite, Mines

Medic
Slot 1: Syringe
Slot 2: Rifle Grenade, Health Pack, Health Box

Support
Slot 1: Limpet, Crossbow, Mortar
Slot 2: Repair Wrench, Ammo Pack, Ammo Box

Scout
Slot 1: K-Bullets, Tripwire Bombs, Shield, Decoy
Slot 2: Flare Gun, Periscope
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (Jun 2nd 2017, 11:11pm)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 5:38am

I see no issue in specing into a pure healing or damage build
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Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 5:40am

Or like Hardline, we could just bring back the ability to snatch a single health/ammo pouch every 12-15s from Medic and Support by pressing E near them. They can continue running their meme gadgets, but you can still expect some basic class function from them.

IDK why everyone was so averse to bringing that function into BF1 when I suggested it earlier

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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 5:58am

Muh teamwork!

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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 6:07am

I see no issue in specing into a pure healing or damage build


Of course you don't, as a player. That's exactly what I'm talking about with overly effective builds, especially when they're preventing one or both of the gadgets used from being better on their own, further compounding the issue.

Everyone loves Rocket Gun and AT Grenades, but it's also an overly effective setup compared to most other pairs, that's why people use it. On the flip side, neither are especially amazing on their own, but they can't really be buffed because they'd be too good together. Very similar story with the Flare Gun and Periscope. I love that combo, but it's borderline too much power in someone's hands, while at the same time prevents the Periscope, which isn't particularly amazing on its own, from being buffed.

The flip side of the too-effective combos are the bad, or at the very least silly combos, like Health & Health or Ammo & Ammo. Full offensive setups (mainly Support) are what's trying to be avoided, not just because they're skipping teamplay for self-serving tools, but because those offensive tools aren't really good setups together. Limpet, Crossbow, and Mortar all play at distinctly difference ranges, and are not at all complementary to each other.

For the rest of Support, Wrench and Ammo is theoretically an all-round passive supportive setup, but as someone who used to use it a lot, it's really not practical. Most of the time you're just an MG with no gadgets, in all practical terms. Also, someone intentionally going for a repair role is very unlikely to need ammo themselves, nor be in a position to supply teammates, while on the flip side Wrench and any of the three explosive weapons would be perfect for an AT/vehicle support type role.

Scout is pretty straightforward, your choice of weapon or troll gadget with a mandatory spotting gadget. This guarantees every Scout has a special spotting ability (no excuses), while also letting the two be more independently powerful.


Just like weapon presets, nothing players should be able to run would be lost. If someone wants to argue that, I have a few weapon setups I'd like to see in the game that are missing.
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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 6:31am

like Health & Health or Ammo & Ammo


There's nothing wrong with specializing into healing or replenishment.

That set up allows you to heal both stationary and moving players.

not just because they're skipping teamplay for self-serving tools, but because those offensive tools aren't really good setups together.


There is more to teamplay than throwing replenishment items at each other.

There is nothing bad about running a close range gadget and long range gadget.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Wednesday, May 17th 2017, 6:38am

I thought I explained the part about design perspective and what players should be allowed to do, vs what they may want to do. If you're going to continue that, I'll have to list a bunch of weapon variants or setups that should be in the game, because I want them.
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