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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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11

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:39am


For example, the Auto Revolver on Medic is arguably the single best sidearm in the game. It's got good TTK and reload time with excellent hipfire acc. and acceptable-tier draw time yet it is placed almost dead last in your Medic-specific metrics.


How can the Auto Revolver be ranked the lowest when its the best Revolver after the Bulldog? It even has a normal reload instead of a reload like the Gasser has.



Shooting Score Ranking


Medic Class


Secondaries


  1. Auto revolver (3RB)
  2. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  3. Taschenpistole M1914 (5RB)
  4. M1911 (4RB)
  5. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  6. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  7. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)
  8. Mauser C96 (5RB)


I don't understand how the 1906 can be rated above the .35 Variants which are vastly superior.



PTFO Stances Ranking


Medic Class


Primaries


  1. Autoloading 8 .35 Factory (3RB)
  2. Autoloading 8 .25 Extended (3RB)
  3. Selbstlader 1906 Factory (3RB)
  4. Autoloading 8 .35 Marksman (3RB)
  5. Selbstlader 1906 Sniper (3RB)
  6. M1907 SL Trench (3RB)
  7. M1907 SL Factory (3RB)
  8. M1907 SL Sweeper (3RB)
  9. Cei-Rigotti Trench (3RB)
  10. Cei-Rigotti Factory (3RB)
  11. Selbstlader M1916 Factory (3RB)
  12. Mondragon Storm (3RB)
  13. RSC 1917 Factory (2RB)
  14. Cei-Rigotti Optical (3RB)
  15. Selbstlader M1916 Marksman (3RB)
  16. Selbstlader M1916 Optical (3RB)
  17. Mondragon Optical (3RB)
  18. RSC 1917 Optical (2RB)
  19. Mondragon Sniper (3RB)

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12

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 2:12pm



Best Assault Class Primary: 12g Automatic Backbored (1RB)

Assault Class Primaries Ranking


  1. 12g Automatic Backbored (1RB)
  2. 12g Automatic Hunter (1RB)
  3. Sjögren Inertial Factory (1RB)
  4. 12g Automatic Extended (1RB)
  5. MP 18 Experimental (5RB)
  6. MP 18 Optical (5RB)
  7. Model 10-A Slug (1RB)
  8. M97 Trench Gun Backbored (1RB)
  9. MP 18 Trench (5RB)
  10. Ribeyrolles 1918 Factory (5RB)
  11. Automatico M1918 Factory (6RB)
  12. M97 Trench Gun Hunter (1RB)
  13. Hellriegel 1915 Factory (5RB)
  14. Automatico M1918 Trench (6RB)
  15. Hellriegel 1915 Defensive (5RB)
  16. Automatico M1918 Storm (6RB)
  17. Model 10-A Factory (1RB)
  18. Model 10-A Hunter (1RB)


Best Medic Class Primary: Selbstlader 1906 Factory (3RB)

Medic Class Primaries Ranking


  1. Selbstlader 1906 Factory (3RB)
  2. Autoloading 8 .35 Factory (3RB)
  3. Autoloading 8 .35 Marksman (3RB)
  4. Selbstlader 1906 Sniper (3RB)
  5. Cei-Rigotti Optical (3RB)
  6. Autoloading 8 .25 Extended (3RB)
  7. Mondragon Optical (3RB)
  8. Selbstlader M1916 Optical (3RB)
  9. Cei-Rigotti Factory (3RB)
  10. M1907 SL Factory (3RB)
  11. Selbstlader M1916 Factory (3RB)
  12. Selbstlader M1916 Marksman (3RB)
  13. RSC 1917 Optical (2RB)
  14. M1907 SL Trench (3RB)
  15. Mondragon Storm (3RB)
  16. RSC 1917 Factory (2RB)
  17. M1907 SL Sweeper (3RB)
  18. Cei-Rigotti Trench (3RB)
  19. Mondragon Sniper (3RB)


Best Scout Class Primary: Gewehr M.95 Carbine (1RB)

Scout Class Primaries Ranking


  1. Gewehr M.95 Carbine (1RB)
  2. SMLE MKIII Carbine (1RB)
  3. M1903 Experimental (5RB)
  4. Russian 1895 Trench (2RB)
  5. Russian 1895 Infantry (1RB)
  6. Gewehr M.95 Infantry (1RB)
  7. Russian 1895 Sniper (1RB)
  8. Gewehr 98 Infantry (1RB)
  9. Gewehr M.95 Marksman (1RB)
  10. SMLE MKIII Infantry (1RB)
  11. Lebel Model 1886 Infantry (1RB)
  12. Gewehr 98 Marksman / Sniper (1RB)
  13. SMLE MKIII Marksman (1RB)
  14. Lebel Model 1886 Sniper (1RB)
  15. M1903 Sniper / Marksman (1RB)
  16. Martini-Henry Infantry (1RB)
  17. Martini-Henry Sniper (1RB)


Best Support Class Primary: Madsen MG Low Weight (5RB)

Support Class Primaries Ranking


  1. Madsen MG Low Weight (5RB)
  2. Chauchat Low Weight (3RB)
  3. Huot Automatic Low Weight (5RB)
  4. BAR 1918 Trench (5RB)
  5. BAR 1918 Storm (5RB)
  6. Huot Automatic Optical (5RB)
  7. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm (5RB)
  8. Lewis Gun Low Weight (5RB)
  9. M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical (5RB)
  10. Madsen MG Trench (5RB)
  11. Madsen MG Storm (5RB)
  12. BAR 1918 Telescopic (5RB)
  13. Chauchat Telescopic (3RB)
  14. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic (5RB)
  15. Lewis Gun Optical (5RB)
  16. Lewis Gun Suppressive (5RB)
  17. MG15 N.A. Low Weight (5RB)
  18. MG15 N.A. Storm (5RB)
  19. MG15 N.A. Suppressive (5RB)


Best Secondary: Scout Class - Mars Automatic Pistol (3RB), All Classes - P08 Pistol (4RB)

Secondaries Ranking


All Combined


  1. Mars Automatic Pistol (3RB)
  2. Steyr M1912 (4RB)
  3. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  4. Taschenpistole M1914 (5RB)
  5. Bulldog (3RB)
  6. Frommer Stop (5RB)
  7. 1903 Hammerless (5RB)
  8. Bodeo 1889 (3RB)
  9. Beretta M1915 (5RB)
  10. M1911 (4RB)
  11. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  12. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  13. Mauser C96 (5RB)
  14. Howdah Pistol (3RB)
  15. Auto revolver (3RB)
  16. Gasser M1870 (3RB)
  17. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)

Assault Class Secondaries


  1. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  2. 1903 Hammerless (5RB)
  3. M1911 (4RB)
  4. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  5. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  6. Howdah Pistol (3RB)
  7. Gasser M1870 (3RB)
  8. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)

Medic Class Secondaries


  1. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  2. Taschenpistole M1914 (5RB)
  3. M1911 (4RB)
  4. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  5. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  6. Mauser C96 (5RB)
  7. Auto revolver (3RB)
  8. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)

Scout Class Secondaries


  1. Mars Automatic Pistol (3RB)
  2. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  3. Frommer Stop (5RB)
  4. Bodeo 1889 (3RB)
  5. M1911 (4RB)
  6. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  7. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  8. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)

Support Class Secondaries


  1. Steyr M1912 (4RB)
  2. P08 Pistol (4RB)
  3. Bulldog (3RB)
  4. Beretta M1915 (5RB)
  5. M1911 (4RB)
  6. Borchard C93 (5RB)
  7. Mle M1903 (5RB)
  8. No. 3 Revolver (3RB)



So what are these then about? Or are they just there for nothing?

marbleduck

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13

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 5:23pm

We know *why* they are ranked as such. Using your methodology, it is clear as to why you would rate them at the top. It is your methodology that we disagree with.

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"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :s"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Saturday, May 13th 2017, 6:33pm

Well, if in your BF1 experience, all combat takes place within 15m, then ignore everything else and just look at the PTFO rankings. That one is 50% Hipfire 25% ADS Moving 25% ADS Not Moving, 2.5m to 15m. That's the one that tells you to use the Auto-8 Factory.

If you don't care about Useability, and only want raw damage output, then ignore everything else and just look at the Shooting Score rankings. That one is Shooting Mechanics -> BTK Burst Length -> shooting to Target Damage achieved -> wait to Spread Decrease (if any) -> score modified by H-Recoil. Don't care about Velocity or Reload or V-Recoil or any of that scrubby stuffs. That's the one that puts the Bodeo and Auto Revolver on top.

And, if you still disagree with how things shake out, then all the Hitrates up to 6RB for 32 Stances for 90 guns are in the Google Sheets. Feel free to use the data and come up with your own rankings.

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Saturday, May 13th 2017, 7:02pm

Well, if in your BF1 experience, all combat takes place within 15m, then ignore everything else and just look at the PTFO rankings. That one is 50% Hipfire 25% ADS Moving 25% ADS Not Moving, 2.5m to 15m. That's the one that tells you to use the Auto-8 Factory.

If you don't care about Useability, and only want raw damage output, then ignore everything else and just look at the Shooting Score rankings. That one is Shooting Mechanics -> BTK Burst Length -> shooting to Target Damage achieved -> wait to Spread Decrease (if any) -> score modified by H-Recoil. Don't care about Velocity or Reload or V-Recoil or any of that scrubby stuffs. That's the one that puts the Bodeo and Auto Revolver on top.

And, if you still disagree with how things shake out, then all the Hitrates up to 6RB for 32 Stances for 90 guns are in the Google Sheets. Feel free to use the data and come up with your own rankings.


Ummm...

0-15m you should be using the Auto .25 ext, Chauchau, Automatico fac (I just don't like the Storm or Trench anymore). Or the M97/Model 10 if you like those buck gun thingies.

The whole point of the Auto .35 variants is that they give .25 performance beyond CQB. As an example: I tend to do much better with the .25 Ext than the .35s because I tend to only really use infantry kits on maps that enforce short sight lines because they have no tanks (Argonne, Vaux), where the 11 extra bullets is more valuable than the extended damage model and ranged accuracy.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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16

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 7:42pm


0-15m you should be using the Auto .25 ext

To kill? Sure. Same BTK with same RoF, after all.

To 200dmg, though, at 15m? ~7dmg extra per hit for the .35 makes some difference.

Shooting + Recovery Times to 200dmg, .35 Factory (3RB) vs. .25 Extended (3RB), 15m ADS Not Moving

1.233333333s vs. 1.866666667s

Reload TImes: 3.234s vs. 2.433s

This post by "BeefVellington" (Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:01pm) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:06pm) with the following reason: Rule 5 & 3

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Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:08pm

If you guys have something to comment on the methodology, go ahead but do it appropriately. Saying "but X should be the best" or "Y is bad" does not alone say anything, you should tell why it is the best / most rated.

And like Veritable said, if you want something more concrete to work with then use tools they shared to come up with your own metrics.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:23pm


0-15m you should be using the Auto .25 ext

To kill? Sure. Same BTK with same RoF, after all.

To 200dmg, though, at 15m? ~7dmg extra per hit for the .35 makes some difference.

Shooting + Recovery Times to 200dmg, .35 Factory (3RB) vs. .25 Extended (3RB), 15m ADS Not Moving

1.233333333s vs. 1.866666667s

Reload TImes: 3.234s vs. 2.433s


That 200 damage criteria doesn't matter at all because of the way damage chunks work and the puny mag on the .35s. What matters is aggregate time to score kills until your mag runs dry.

Max damage on the .35 is 42, which means you have to dump 3 body hits into one guy and then a headshot and a body shot into the next guy to meaningfully deal 200 dmg that nets you 2 kills. 100% accuracy plus a headshot at point blank ranges? Yeah good luck with that. It's doable, but no player can rely on that.

The .25 by contrast has the bullet count and damage model to put down 3 guys missing a very generous 7 times (or almost 50%) as long as you can survive. Yeah, it's got 7 less damage, but inside of 15 meters it kills just as quickly The chau is even better < 12m.

The only thing holding those guns back from solo squad wiping is that annoying habit that the enemy has of shooting back.

A race to 200 dmg is simply meaningless when you have quantized bullet damage spread across chunks of 100 damage. Should be replaced with some sort of ratio of BTK to stowed kills per mag.

The close range optimized weapons are so unambiguously dominant < 15m that any ranking system that doesn't put the .25 ext or chau at the top of the pile is likely flawed. If anything, you should reverse engineer the system to make sure those guns come out top. Any system that doesn't have the 1907 trenchie near the top at < 15 m is also making a mistake.

The balancing in BF1 is IMO really quite obvious and very rock-paper-scissory. Short range optimized guns are actually really good at short range. Having really strong extended range performance costs you bigtime in the short range in terms of servicing targets but means you can actually kill stuff beyond 20 m, etc, etc.

A ranking system should reflect this, again obvious, state of affairs.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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Saturday, May 13th 2017, 8:29pm

Trying Burst Length as "dynamic," where shooter stops shooting if Hitrate falls below 25%.

"Test" Google Sheets: Scoring Everything in BF1 - Dynamic Burst Length Test - Google Sheets

Example: 10m ADS Not Moving, Auto-8 .35 Factory shoots 5RB, because 100% Hitrate on all 5 rounds, 210 damage, Target Damage met. Takes 1.033333333s.

100m ADS Not Moving, the same Auto-8 .35 Factory shoots 2RB, because 2nd round has 28.69% Hitrate and 3rd round is down to 12.97%, 32.46 damage. Recover then repeat until Target Damage met. Takes 3.033333333s.

-----

In the original Sheets, with Burst Length set to 3RB for the Auto-8 .35, 10m ADS Not Moving instead takes 1.233333333s. 100m takes 4.233333333s.