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## Bayonet Balancing Idea: Dynamic Movement Angle

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Thursday, May 11th 2017, 9:27am

You mean the Scout Rifle lock-ons? It ruins the game for me. There are very little positions on each map where a Scout does not have line of sight, so when you try to engage other infantry in ADS you often get Sweet Spotted or severely damaged where just two bullets from anywhere will finish you off. I'm beginning to think that I should just stay at one or two flags at the most and take defensive positions exclusively because Scouts are just flat-out deadly and BF1's terrible map design and lack of adequate cover in between flags just reinforces that sentiment.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

### Source code

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AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
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CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

### Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
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DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

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AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,838

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Thursday, May 11th 2017, 10:34am

Yeah, this is a huge issue for me as well. I was always against buffing the BAs to these current levels, mostly because I do not trust DICE map design. It just does not work well together to the point of being frustrating. It does not help either that TTK went through the roof for everything except BAs.

We still got three expansions and twelve maps to go, so they might get their shit together for a couple of maps though.

It never really occured to me, that what is annoying on PC, might be really frustrating on console thanks to the aim assist.

Sona tank jungle

Posts: 7,904

Date of registration
: May 30th 2012

Platform: PS4

Location: SURROUNDED BY FUCKING MOUNTAINS

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 20

Thursday, May 11th 2017, 10:53am

To be fair I don't think there's enough good snipers to make them an actual threat in the battlefield. You'll have maybe one good Scout or two in the server that are making good use of their guns and gadgets, the rest get a few kills each match by landing a strat bullet on a wounded target and otherwise just become points for other scouts/medics.

Yeah, there's probably many times I've died to a sniper whose aim was off and still landed a shot due to snap-to AA, but you can't go on thinking every death was like that (mostly because it probably isn't). Just respawn, keep awareness of where that dude might be and keep playing.
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

### Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Thursday, May 11th 2017, 11:25am

### Quoted from "commandough"

While the act of shooting has so many more elements that it transcends simplifcation and can't possibly be described as a activity consisting of pointing and clicking.

Yes. Yes it does.

Bayonet charging requires you to press the sprint button, press the melee button, then point at the target and hope they don't hit you. Shooting on the other hand, requires you be able to control non-linear recoil, burst at specific intervals to maximise your hitrate, and not only superimpose your crosshair over the target, but also do so quickly, unlike bayonet charging.

Sure, on Symthic we like to circlejerk around saying that "cognitive skill > technical skill," but that's only done within certain specific contexts. This is not one of those contexts. Bayonet charging really requires no technical skill at all. It's not only bad gameplay design, but also just simply boring.

You say that "mechanics in video games are supposed to be simple to learn, hard to master." Let me emphasise the "hard to master" part.

If bayonets actually required technical skill to use, then I reckon we'd see far less complaints about it. But how to do that, I have no idea.

@VincentNZ

Sure, there is some cognitive skill involved in using the bayonet in certain situations. But that doesn't excuse the fact that there is no technical skill required in using it, nor that there are many situations in which the bayonet doesn't require any cognitive skill. Some of those situations are:

-Starting the charge from <10 m away
-Charging blindly around a corner
-Suicidally charging into a group of enemies, in which you will surely die

None of these situations require technical skill nor cognitive skill, and yet the charger still comes out on top. THIS is where the bayonet gets frustrating - you were not killed because the opponent had more skill than you, but rather that he got lucky.

I can't believe I had to spend this much time typing this out.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,838

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Thursday, May 11th 2017, 11:27am

But you do not need to be a good or even decent sniper to possibly "spoil" the day for other players. Everybody complained about hill campers that could not be touched but did not contribute to the team either. So DICE answered with moving them closer to the objectives, buffing the shit out of them and made the other weapon classes very unusable at these ranges. They also made maps with long sight lines and wide angles so you can get more shots at your targets.

So I am a rather shitty sniper, but I do not need to be good to get kills, I just have to hit the enemy once and either let others do the job, kill them instantly through the sweet spot or a headshot or I will kill them instantly, since they are injured already thanks to higher TTK. All the while these targets can not touch me. Pot shots really are the hot shit in BF1 sniper play. If you are actually a proficient sniper, there is nothing really to stop you.

In BF4 I would have to hit them twice, and the guy would have a chance to retaliate by killing or hurting me with his weapon, close the gap or heal up and disengage altogether. He also had the chance to kill others while injured by me.

If BF1 managed anything it was the removal of options.

But that is off-topic, other than that BAs (or more precisely, Scouts) have, with the bayonet and the sidearm, a rather good overall performance.

@Zer0Cod3x

Nice post, I do understand your reasoning way better now. I do see your point.

Don't you think though, that when you blindly charge into a group of enemies, that this is a succesful charge? I mean the risk is huge and the best outcome is that one enemy and you are dead, which is just the status quo. So this is indeed stupid. Does this happen to you so much that it would validate to nullify the whole mechanic?
Still it is hard to measure what the exact thoughts behind a charge were, it might very well stem from reasonable thinking. Maybe the guy knew someone was behind that corner and his best chance was the charge. Or in the group of enemies there was an elite and taking him out would definitely have merit, you just got in the way. Or he was low on health, chased by another guy, and thanks to the high TTK he had no other chance to get something out of his sure death. There are a dozen or so other reasons where his thoughts were reasonable, and I think the stupid blind charge is a very tiny fraction of it.

And all in all, if you are a good shot, going for the shooting kill is likely always the better option.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (May 11th 2017, 11:39am)

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Friday, May 12th 2017, 2:29am

### Quoted from "commandough"

While the act of shooting has so many more elements that it transcends simplifcation and can't possibly be described as a activity consisting of pointing and clicking.

Yes. Yes it does.

Bayonet charging requires you to press the sprint button, press the melee button, then point at the target and hope they don't hit you. Shooting on the other hand, requires you be able to control non-linear recoil, burst at specific intervals to maximise your hitrate, and not only superimpose your crosshair over the target, but also do so quickly, unlike bayonet charging.

And that's all done via point and clicking.

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Friday, May 12th 2017, 2:46am

### Quoted from "VincentNZ"

But you do not need to be a good or even decent sniper to possibly "spoil" the day for other players. Everybody complained about hill campers that could not be touched but did not contribute to the team either. So DICE answered with moving them closer to the objectives, buffing the shit out of them and made the other weapon classes very unusable at these ranges. They also made maps with long sight lines and wide angles so you can get more shots at your targets.

So I am a rather shitty sniper, but I do not need to be good to get kills, I just have to hit the enemy once and either let others do the job, kill them instantly through the sweet spot or a headshot or I will kill them instantly, since they are injured already thanks to higher TTK. All the while these targets can not touch me. Pot shots really are the hot shit in BF1 sniper play. If you are actually a proficient sniper, there is nothing really to stop you.

In BF4 I would have to hit them twice, and the guy would have a chance to retaliate by killing or hurting me with his weapon, close the gap or heal up and disengage altogether. He also had the chance to kill others while injured by me.

If BF1 managed anything it was the removal of options.

But that is off-topic, other than that BAs (or more precisely, Scouts) have, with the bayonet and the sidearm, a rather good overall performance.

@Zer0Cod3x

Nice post, I do understand your reasoning way better now. I do see your point.

Don't you think though, that when you blindly charge into a group of enemies, that this is a succesful charge? I mean the risk is huge and the best outcome is that one enemy and you are dead, which is just the status quo. So this is indeed stupid. Does this happen to you so much that it would validate to nullify the whole mechanic?
Still it is hard to measure what the exact thoughts behind a charge were, it might very well stem from reasonable thinking. Maybe the guy knew someone was behind that corner and his best chance was the charge. Or in the group of enemies there was an elite and taking him out would definitely have merit, you just got in the way. Or he was low on health, chased by another guy, and thanks to the high TTK he had no other chance to get something out of his sure death. There are a dozen or so other reasons where his thoughts were reasonable, and I think the stupid blind charge is a very tiny fraction of it.

And all in all, if you are a good shot, going for the shooting kill is likely always the better option.

### Quoted from "commandough"

While the act of shooting has so many more elements that it transcends simplifcation and can't possibly be described as a activity consisting of pointing and clicking.

Yes. Yes it does.

Bayonet charging requires you to press the sprint button, press the melee button, then point at the target and hope they don't hit you. Shooting on the other hand, requires you be able to control non-linear recoil, burst at specific intervals to maximise your hitrate, and not only superimpose your crosshair over the target, but also do so quickly, unlike bayonet charging.

And that's all done via point and clicking.

So writing a PhD dissertation is just hitting keys on a keyboard?

This post by "marbleduck" (Friday, May 12th 2017, 3:24am) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Friday, May 12th 2017, 5:41pm) with the following reason: Rule 5

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Friday, May 12th 2017, 4:16am

I do feel bad here, guys, I understand that there is real depth to the hobby here.

The technical skills involved in FPSing can be called recoil control or target acquisition.

Or if you're being 'political incorrect' you can lump them all in the category of 'pushing a mouse around'. And it is technically correct, just like how pool is hitting one ball with a stick to hit other balls.
Try to explain this hobby to a non-gamer and see what they call it.

We can't improve on a flawed mechanic that nobody likes and has zero chance of making it into the next battlefield if everybody pretends that there's some transcendent skill in FPSing.

Posts: 68

Date of registration
: Mar 2nd 2017

Platform: PS4

Reputation modifier: 1

Friday, May 12th 2017, 5:56am

While I have noticed Duck responding to Xfactor in the past about how recoil control is simply pulling down on the mouse/joystick, in my experience recoil in this game is so low (especially within effective ranges, and vrec since hrec can't be countered) that a player with average ability and great snap aim will almost always beat a player with similarly average ability but great recoil control.

And uhhh... the noskill charge can absolutely be fixed regardless of the current state of gunplay. Your 15 years of transcendent skill in FPSing goes out of the window once some noob* charges around a corner at you.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "oba" (May 12th 2017, 6:31am)