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Bayonet Balancing Idea: Dynamic Movement Angle

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Can't get a title

Posts: 1,524

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 12

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 7:32am

Quoted from "commandough"

I wanted a new mechanic that would reward time and energy spent mastering it and hoped that the current system would serve as a useful first step to building a more competitive element of the game.

That's the exact problem with the bayonet. It doesn't take any skill to use, technical or cognitive. It is quite literally a point and click to win mechanic.

It's frustrating to fight against, especially when activated <5m away from you, and it takes no skill whatsoever to use.
something something Model 8 bestgun

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,531

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 12:51pm

Quoted from "commandough"

I wanted a new mechanic that would reward time and energy spent mastering it and hoped that the current system would serve as a useful first step to building a more competitive element of the game.

That's the exact problem with the bayonet. It doesn't take any skill to use, technical or cognitive. It is quite literally a point and click to win mechanic.

It's frustrating to fight against, especially when activated <5m away from you, and it takes no skill whatsoever to use.

I can not agree with that. You do not win if you use the bayonet, you are always better off with your weapon if your aim is good enough. The optimal use of the bayonet would be to overcome a disadvantageous situation and stay alive. Just a double kill or being killed in the process, which happens much more often, is not really a win.
If you find yourself in a situation with your BA against an SMG, the bayonet is a tactical decision. If you have an SMG and charge at a guy with an SLR to close the gap then it is another cognitive decision. It opens up the possibility to win, but it does not mean that you will successfully charge that guy, damage reduction or not. For a successful charge you need to know where the opponent is, you need to know if you can reach him and you need to be able to maneuver, and then a thousand things can go wrong, that is cognitive and tactical. Panic charges are irrlevant in the amount of kills, because they rarely work for a dozen reasons.

If you get killed by a bayonet charge, you simply got outplayed. In very rare cases, it is very bad luck, and there is nothing more to it. It is like the panic knife takedowns that would happen from time to time in BF4, so marginal you could neglect them, but are perceived as a problem, which they are not.

This post by "JSLICE20" (Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 1:11pm) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 2:46pm) with the following reason: Rule 5

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,531

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 2:14pm

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

>That face when Bayonet charging can be classified as tactical and skillful

Well I hope it is a facial expression of enlightenment. I always like to encourage people in thinking deeper.

Do you have a problem with melee takedowns and melee damage as well, both in BF1 and previous iterations? Well I do, but that is from personal perception for a very marginal occurence. If I get frontknifed in BF4 or me and my opponent are stabbing ourselves to death at point blank it is frustrating, but the death/kill is so irrelevant that there is no need to complain about it, even if I find the mechanic lacking.

Is bayonet charging a great feature? No. Could it use tweaking or a reinterpretation? Yes, but it is kind of immersive, true to the "lore", or what we think of it, and most importantly in a game that is solely about aiming gives another option, which is appreciated. So if you remove one option by making bayonet charging irrelevant, BF1 becomes a one-trick pony, which it already is in so many aspects.

Everybody must see that bayonet charging is used as a last ditch effort to turn the table and it is still a high risk gamble. If you know the automatico user is after you and you only got a Selbstlader or BA, then the bayonet is definitely a tactical choice. And I stay with it, if you get bayoneted you have been outplayed by not making the most out of your advantage.

Posts: 3,190

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 2:44pm

If you are near an Automatico with a BA or SLR, then you're out of position and deserve to die.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$tho Holy War? No Thanks. Posts: 2,531 Date of registration : Jul 25th 2013 Platform: PC Battlelog: Reputation modifier: 14 Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 3:00pm Well this would be true, if we were playing a game like Battlegrounds, where I would not enter a house with my Karabiner 98. There I would try to stick to maximum range as much as possible. In a game like Battlefield which is about being cramped into one spot with as many players as possible while still needing to fulfill certain objectives and where the goal is not to survive as long as you can but to win and kill in the process you will find yourself in a spot more often than not where your weapon of choice is not the best weapon. At the same time, you will often find yourself in positions where you are severely outranged by your opponent, too. That is very often not a deliberate choice, but where the game mechanics took us. They tried to offset this with the bayonet charge. Giving you another option. And it never was a good option. People seem to claim in this thread that everytime they were bayoneted it was not their fault at all, and that the bayonet is an almost magical device for making kills. It is not, it has severe drawbacks, can be glitchy, is not very straightforward to use and can easily be countered by simply shooting the guy or maneuvering. If you get killed by it, you should question yourself, as the bayonet is not a problem at all. Posts: 899 Date of registration : Dec 14th 2014 Platform: PS3 Location: The Heart of Europe Battlelog: Reputation modifier: 6 Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 6:55pm I didnt read the whole thread yet, just the first page. Still I want to point to a direction into some aspect, which should not be overlooked: - Allowing inexperienced players an edge against experienced players. Watch this Video: https://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w Extra Credits - Balancing for Skill I highly guess, that the Bayonet charge has been implemented for the exact same reason as the noobtube did in CoD The only question remains, how to decrease its effectiveness, so it doesnt become useless for the inexperienced AND to make it less annoying for the rest of the players. still playin' Motorstorm Posts: 3,190 Date of registration : Apr 26th 2013 Platform: PS4 Location: Arizona, USA Reputation modifier: 15 Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 7:29pm @ARE5R06 This was my first, true response: Quoted from "JSLICE20" The only problems the Bayonet Charge present are ninja charges, panic charges, and corner/ cover charges. These are the aspects of it that get continuously exploited by players of all skill types. The sole issue that is prevalent through all 3 is the distance of the stabbing/ thrusting animation. Here's some data I thought looked relevant: Source code 1 2 3 4 5 6 7   PrepareStateTime 0.4 ChargeStateTime 4.0 SuccessStateTime 8.3 FailedStateTime 6.0 VelocityThreshold 3.4 AttackDistance 2.5 AttackAngle 25.0 VelocityThreshold: The velocity required for the charge to become available PrepareStateTime: The amount of time required to pass after reaching the VelocityThreshold AttackDistance: The radius relative to the victim for the animation to initiate AttackAngle: The acceptance angle for a successful charge This is how I interpreted the data. I could be incorrect. Preliminary Suggestions (provided the interpretation of the data is correct) - Increase the PrepareStateTime to 1.0s Reduce the AttackDistance to 0.5m Reduce the AttackAngle to 15° Ninja charges are being addressed in the May Update through louder volumes associated with the charge Panic charges exist because of the fast 0.4 ChargeStateTime in conjunction with the VelocityThreshold Corner charges are effective because of the 25° AttackAngle and tight turn radius (the turn rate is also getting looked at in the May Update) The amount of time for a player to react to an incoming Bayonet is decreased because of the generous AttackDistance of 2.5m where the Bayonet animation initiates All of these are directly impacted by the bullet/ damage resistance modifier which is also being removed in the May Update ----------------------------- The Bayonet is a frustrating piece of shit because it's an "I win" option 99% of the time for a player of any level of technical or cognitive ability. Relative to the skill floor it is miles below; there is no depth in the mechanic, it's a one dimensional system that exists for free kills with very little risk involved unless you suck entirely. It's designed for casual players and casual players alone. The next Update intends to make the charge more risky to pull off and more challenging to pull off which is a step in the right direction. Anecdotal account: Since the recent patch, my deaths have consisted of the following in order from least to greatest: actual bullets, unavoidable Bayonet charges, Martini-Henry Aim Assist one shots, general explosives/ blast damage weaponry To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question. Nope. 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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (May 9th 2017, 8:04pm)

Sona tank jungle

Posts: 7,814

Date of registration
: May 30th 2012

Platform: PS4

Location: SURROUNDED BY FUCKING MOUNTAINS

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 18

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 8:09pm

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

@ARE5R06

Anecdotal account: Since the recent patch, my deaths have consisted of the following in order from least to greatest: actual bullets, unavoidable Bayonet charges, Martini-Henry Aim Assist one shots, general explosives/ blast damage weaponry

Well I don't know how you play the game but you're doing something wrong if your main death source are explosives (even if vehicles are included in this for the most part).

I can quite confidently say that in my own experience, out of a generic sample of 100 deaths, 1 would be to bayonets, 11 to blasts, 5 to "MH AA OHK" and 83 to actual bullets.
Bro of Legion, the lurker ninja mod | Tesla FTW | RNG is evil.

Quoted from "MsMuchLove"

I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

Posts: 3,190

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 9:09pm

You're right. My mistake is that I mostly play Conquest.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0