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## Bayonet Balancing Idea: Dynamic Movement Angle

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Posts: 269

Date of registration
: Jun 9th 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

Sunday, May 7th 2017, 10:29am

As long as TTK is so high, I do not think bayonet charge should exist in this game at all.

This post by "jimmyarchon" (Sunday, May 7th 2017, 10:40am) has been deleted by user "Miffyli" (Sunday, May 7th 2017, 5:29pm) with the following reason: ad

Posts: 116

Date of registration
: Dec 26th 2015

Platform: PC

Reputation modifier: 3

Sunday, May 7th 2017, 12:55pm

As tactical user of the bayonet - and let's face it, I probably use it more than most, (511 kills to date or the most kills that I have with any weapon or vehicle), I wouldn't mind the turning speed nerf as time progresses. In my opinion, a bayonet charge is for busting through doors, or into tight spaces to take advantage of reduced time to attack, with the occasional backstab because someone is running away from you. The recent nerf to the charge hasn't affected my charges in the least.

Panic charges are easier to avoid than tactical ones. A sidestep or quick dash is all it takes to get the person behind you, and if you're quick, you can get the melee kill before they get out of range.
A rifle with a bayonet and a flare gun equal a fantastic stabbing combo. (Also, if you run over your own flare, it turns you into a flaming stabby person, so that's cool)
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

### Spoiler

BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
Interactive Damage Table
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Sunday, May 7th 2017, 8:07pm

Compensating for the limited turn radius is the aspect of the bayonet with the highest skillgap. Which is admittedly pretty low. Your change would lower the skill ceiling and make it less reliable. No using the full meter because you can't turn at the end of it. And if the target decides to start moving, you can't hit him.

My own idea was to remove the artificial limitation on turn radius entirely, but make it so if you turned faster then the old limit, you would fail out the charge after a few steps; plus adding a GUI element to give players information on how far they're turned.

Posts: 3,291

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Sunday, May 7th 2017, 9:03pm

The only problems the Bayonet Charge present are ninja charges, panic charges, and corner/ cover charges. These are the aspects of it that get continuously exploited by players of all skill types. The sole issue that is prevalent through all 3 is the distance of the stabbing/ thrusting animation.

Here's some data I thought looked relevant:

### Source code

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 PrepareStateTime 0.4
ChargeStateTime 4.0
SuccessStateTime 8.3
FailedStateTime 6.0
VelocityThreshold 3.4
AttackDistance 2.5
AttackAngle 25.0

VelocityThreshold: The velocity required for the charge to become available
PrepareStateTime: The amount of time required to pass after reaching the VelocityThreshold
AttackDistance: The radius relative to the victim for the animation to initiate
AttackAngle: The acceptance angle for a successful charge

This is how I interpreted the data. I could be incorrect.

### Preliminary Suggestions

(provided the interpretation of the data is correct) -

Increase the PrepareStateTime to 1.0s
Reduce the AttackDistance to 0.5m
Reduce the AttackAngle to 15°
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

### Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
x 2.0
y 2.0
YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
x 1.0
y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.75
AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 1.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.34
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

### Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
x 2.0
y 2.0
YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
x 1.0
y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.0
AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 0.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.0
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

### Source code

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
x 2.0
y 2.0
YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
x 1.0
y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.75
AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 1.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.34
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Sunday, May 7th 2017, 9:31pm

That's sort of like saying that the only problems with shooting is when you don't see the person, or they react first, or they surprise you.

I'm sorry, but I thought the bayonet charge was supposed a valid if novel and unpolished way to play, not target practice for people who think everything in the game should revolve around rewarding them for being better at 'correctly estimating the distance they need to move their mouse in order to bring the center of their screen to middle of a vertical rectangular hit box and then doing so in a short amount of time'.

Smoked Salmon Best Salmon

Posts: 1,024

Date of registration
: Dec 25th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: Yakima. WA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 12

Monday, May 8th 2017, 6:07am

### Quoted from "commandough"

That's sort of like saying that the only problems with shooting is when you don't see the person, or they react first, or they surprise you.

I'm sorry, but I thought the bayonet charge was supposed a valid if novel and unpolished way to play, not target practice for people who think everything in the game should revolve around rewarding them for being better at 'correctly estimating the distance they need to move their mouse in order to bring the center of their screen to middle of a vertical rectangular hit box and then doing so in a short amount of time'.

You vastly oversimplify a huge component of what makes a game worth playing, which is to say, the aspect of technical skill. If you are not interested in comparing your abilities to those of others in the technical in addition to , but with no less weight than the cognitive realms, go play something else. Like maybe something that's not a shooter.

Even then, all the positioning in the world isn't going to save you from someone who can snake-strafe into an unstoppable kill at 2.5m distance.

Platoon Marble Duck

### Hate Mail

"you obviously don't know what an argument is as there is only one person battling. Do you really fucking think I want subs? You think you can act all big and powerful just because you sit on a computer at least 6 hours a day like the probably nerdy unwanted retard you are with 4.3k subs? You think 4.3k subs is a lot? LOL you need medicine man. I don't want any subs as i just have a google account for other media and writing comments. Think twice before you act. You even said in your video you aren't that great of a player, and the comments agree you aren't. Maybe you should once again think twice before you act, stop being such an annoying, ignorant bastard that everyone wants to shut up, and god, literally, just shut up. Your voice gave me a headache :sï»¿"

"As a youtuber shouldn't be trying to be reeling in your viewers with exciting stuff being said not your boring ass commentary for your video"

"The more you watch his vid the dumber he gets I swear he's borderline autistic look I got shot behind cover beacuase thin sheets metal are unpenetrable. Bf4 is just as quiet and tactical as bf3 random explosion in the background . Player has dissconected from chat
You started playing bf3 and never touched bfc1/2. Please do yourself a favor and shutdown your generic cod channel down"

"Nice clickb8 Faggot w8ting for your shit tier video to disable comments . Fucking newfag cancer go play some cod you activisiom cock faggot"

"I don't see why he [MarbleDuck] always tries to shit on levelcap he is better and has a million more subs...and also "there isnt a best gun in she game there are guns that are better that others at different engagement distances" yes thats true and whichever is the best/most average at all of them is the "best gun""

"Marbleduck you don't know shit lol levelcap knows more than you do you cant talk about how someone puts up garbage when you do yourself your a newcomer to YouTube acting like you know shit step up in the food chain first then you have the right to talk otherwise your just a fish trying to compete with sharks"

"Why don't we just witness "LevelCap vs MarbleDuck" One on One both on Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 seen as there is so much Controversy about the Two Youtubers"

"stfu cunt, BF3 was way better end of discussion"

"Stfu man, you're be littleing the most looked upon Battlefield Youtuber. No one cares about you, how much of an ego you have, or quite frankly your opinion. It's a fucking game.... Does it really fucking matter? Pathetic man."

"fuck you asshole, dont talk shit about total"

"Wtf is your problem? You have no subs and he has millions, yet you pick on him like some kind of stubborn, ignorant, rude child born with a silver spoon is his mouth. It's easy to do that, for example... You said there was no background noise yet there is. You say you're a fairly good player, you're not."

"please talk like a normal person and not like a professional"

Posts: 116

Date of registration
: Dec 26th 2015

Platform: PC

Reputation modifier: 3

Monday, May 8th 2017, 7:25am

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Preliminary Suggestions
(provided the interpretation of the data is correct) -

Increase the PrepareStateTime to 1.0s
Reduce the AttackDistance to 0.5m
Reduce the AttackAngle to 15°

You have to remember that the attack distance would be the length of the gun plus the bayonet. It's essentially turning your weapon into a spear. However, at 2.5 meters or an 8 foot range for a maximum 51.2 (1.3m) inch rifle + bayonet (Lebel), that's a whole two feet too much. I could see that lowered to 1.9m (about 6 feet) - which would still make a difference for the rifle bayonet charges. In reality, I think having a weapon length modifier while using a bayonet charge would help make it more balanced. It would also solve the nearly non-existent counter bayonet charge mechanic by introducing a proper method. (The Lebel with an early bayonet had a length of 51 inches plus a 20 inch bayonet for a total of 71 inches. I think this is the longest reach of any bayonetted weapon in WW1.)
In reality the whole reach thing didn't really work out on the battlefield - because most over the trench charges got mowed down by machine guns or caught in barbed wire before they even reached the opposite trench.

If the attack distance is what you are suggesting and is cut down to a normal length - like 1.9m for the single action rifles, SLRs, and shotguns, and like 1m for the SMGs, I think that would a few of the issues. (Does anyone use a bayonet on a SMG besides me?) BUT What I think the most about this is that there should be a minimum distance as well. If a target is within say, 1.5m once the long gun bayonet charge gets underway, it shouldn't initiate a takedown, since the blade is technically already beyond them. The benefit of a SMG having a bayonet would be that the minimum takedown range probably would fall under .5m, leaving leeway in how close you can initiate a charge.

I thought about the wording used in the stats there, and the attack distance could also refer to how far the person has to be running in order to start a bayonet charge. 2.5 meters is just about how far it would take to get a good sprint started. Add in the .4 second delay to ready your weapon at the ideal height and start charging... Maybe that's what the stats mean?
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

### Spoiler

BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
Interactive Damage Table
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,601

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Monday, May 8th 2017, 11:24am

For me I would say with the removal of the damage reduction they likely killed the bayonet for anything but killing of elites. And even there it will be harder now. I do not think it was needed and this stems from the simple frustration one gets when he is successfully charged. This is multiplied since it is a OHK and therefore the receiving end feels he is losing control over the situation and players do generally object to that. It is similar with suppression in BF3.

Truth is though, that most engagements never accumulated enough suppression for it to make a difference and most succesful bayonet charges were not due to crazy narrow turn radii or precise movement of the charger. If you get stabbed in the back you were dead a couple of seconds ago and just did not know it yet. My bayonet kills sit at 289 and I tend to use it tactically, so I guess that is more than average.

I have around 12000 infantry kills, so my bayonet percentage is roughly 2,5%, my melee kill percentage is at 16%.

Was the turn radius to good? Well, I would say it was exploitable, was it exploited to a meaningful extent? No. DICE does seem to adress very miniscule problems, to a point where I can not admit they are fixing problems at all, and they do so by basically making a mechanic unrewarding to use in most circumstances. I am sorry to say, but if you get successfully head-on charged by a player and he succeeds, then you simply got outplayed.

Honestly the amount of successful panic charges that so many people even here seem to complain about is so marginal, that it is not worth noting. So often you try to charge and stab the air, or you want to stab and start to charge. Then often enough the charge will be aborted anyway by the most ridiculous obstacles, and then when you reach your opponent you might still be killed, and will likely be killed in the aftermath. Bayonet charges are vastly overrated and overestimated and that is the sole truth.

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Tuesday, May 9th 2017, 3:17am

### Quoted from "commandough"

That's sort of like saying that the only problems with shooting is when you don't see the person, or they react first, or they surprise you.

I'm sorry, but I thought the bayonet charge was supposed a valid if novel and unpolished way to play, not target practice for people who think everything in the game should revolve around rewarding them for being better at 'correctly estimating the distance they need to move their mouse in order to bring the center of their screen to middle of a vertical rectangular hit box and then doing so in a short amount of time'.

You vastly oversimplify a huge component of what makes a game worth playing, which is to say, the aspect of technical skill. If you are not interested in comparing your abilities to those of others in the technical in addition to , but with no less weight than the cognitive realms, go play something else. Like maybe something that's not a shooter.

Even then, all the positioning in the world isn't going to save you from someone who can snake-strafe into an unstoppable kill at 2.5m distance.
A simplification, but not one that loses much accuracy. My point isn't that FPS skill is stupid, it's that it's not special. And I don't find it compelling, and that's I stopped playing them until battlefield 1 because I thought it had expanded upon the enjoyable but lacking in technical skillgap 'first person melee' system of BF3.

I wanted a new mechanic that would reward time and energy spent mastering it and hoped that the current system would serve as a useful first step to building a more competitive element of the game.

Of course, the entire community merely wants the whole thing nerfed into irrelevancy.

Also, I take serious issue with your claim that technical skill is merely equally weighted with cognitive skill. If Battlefield 1 has taught me one thing, it's that you can posses high technical skill and still get basic facts about the game you're playing wrong.

Finally, the actual stabbing animation only plays when the player gets close enough to touch the enemy, the extra distance is the enemy freezing in panic. It is therefore completely realistic and should have won the french national election.