Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Posts: 787

Date of registration
: Dec 3rd 2014

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

  • Send private message

71

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 9:09am

I tend to think of the side facing machineguns as just glorified passenger seats and the tanks more as APCs. No player should be staying in these seats the whole game. They just exist so that the tank can ferry infantry into the point. The player is given invulnerability to small arms fire and a decent enough MG to use while they wait for a safe/ useful time to jump out. The big problem with these MGs is that when the tank moves, the points where the player aims and where their bullets actually go become completely divorced from one another. This makes them fairly useless most of the time.

As for repairs, there are a few big problems with them:

1. it means losing a powerful support gadget like the HE mortar/ ammo box/ crossbow in order to run the tool and even then there's every chance the random blueberries will just drive off and leave you exposed when you try to help them. So you either die or are left running around with a useless gadget.

2. Soldiers are much more vulnerable while repairing given BF1's movement speeds compared with BF3/4 and can't just bunny hop to safety.

3. Getting in the vehicle now takes time and the rep will usually be finished off if they try to get in after being fired upon.

4. The points for repairing are in no way worth the risk.

5. The tanks can repair themselves, making a wrenchmonkey helpful but not necessary.

Posts: 1,791

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

72

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 9:36am

I tend to think of the side facing machineguns as just glorified passenger seats and the tanks more as APCs. No player should be staying in these seats the whole game. They just exist so that the tank can ferry infantry into the point. The player is given invulnerability to small arms fire and a decent enough MG to use while they wait for a safe/ useful time to jump out. The big problem with these MGs is that when the tank moves, the points where the player aims and where their bullets actually go become completely divorced from one another. This makes them fairly useless most of the time.

As for repairs, there are a few big problems with them:

1. it means losing a powerful support gadget like the HE mortar/ ammo box/ crossbow in order to run the tool and even then there's every chance the random blueberries will just drive off and leave you exposed when you try to help them. So you either die or are left running around with a useless gadget.

2. Soldiers are much more vulnerable while repairing given BF1's movement speeds compared with BF3/4 and can't just bunny hop to safety.

3. Getting in the vehicle now takes time and the rep will usually be finished off if they try to get in after being fired upon.

4. The points for repairing are in no way worth the risk.

5. The tanks can repair themselves, making a wrenchmonkey helpful but not necessary.


1. If you're going to repair, you're going to be doing it consistently and then re-crewing the vehicle such that neither ammo nor the mortar are terribly useful. Much better off going HE Xbow and repair tool and then sticking to the tank. Another reason why you don't get much blueberry repair unless they are medal hunting. You only want to do that stuff for a tanker of "pedigree".

2. Not really. Repair guys typically die to splash effects during improper dismount or getting spammed by air attack or cav grenades. Staying behind the tank is fairly safe from small arms.

4. Most players die without scoring big each life anyway. It's just not worth the points for decent/skilled players. Bottom half players would actually probably do well supporting a strong tank and score better than their average.

5. the tank can't do anything while repairing and the repair can be interrupted. As I stated previously, repair support really multiplies the effectiveness of a tank, basically doubling the KPM. That's huge, like having a whole second tank.

Posts: 91

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: UK

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

  • Send private message

73

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 10:31am

BF1 retains all of the core "repair to win" mechanics of the prior titles and actually introduces a bunch of "features" that make the experience generally shittier. Repair support is just as powerful as ever and you generally need it to score > 60 kill rounds because if you are solo you have to spend a lot of time out of combat simply repairing. Solo tanking while keeping it alive and fighting at ranges relevant to control of any flag generally requires a lot of pulling back to lick wounds which really kills your KPM. Because all prior BF tanks were so much faster, they were a lot easier to solo than the BF1 tanks.

Because of the interrupting nature of the repair cycles, and because of the fact that your tank will get spawned into and stolen if you attempt a hot repair, you really have to extensively withdraw and get away from the k bullets to run cycles, which keeps you out of action for a long time. With repair support in BF1 you can really push up to KPMs of 2.5-3.0 on conq.


It's exactly that downtime which made the new Heavy Tank (with the useless E-Rep) barley playable or enjoyable enough for a solo player. The E-Rep nerf also completely killed off whatever usefulness the Light Howitzer Tank and Arty Truck had to start with. The SS Landship at least offers that heavenly repair cycle and the Light Flanker Tank always provides unrivalled control in areas surrounded by a high-concentration of enemies, which usually is the case if you PTFO. Not to mention the latter's ability to find cover and reliably repair almost anywhere thanks to its profile/turret/firepower combo.


The only other tank worth using is the Standoff SC. Like you recently said, the Heavy Breakthrough Tank and TH Landship are the only tanks lacking in driver controlled infantry-farming weapons. In comparison, the Standoff SC is the only tank that offers MULTIPLE infantry-farming weapons for the driver. With the May update likely introducing the Landship's repair cycle to ALL tanks, the Standoff SC will become the undisputed king of all the heavier tanks and finish off its clean sweep over the competition. The shorter repair cycle will make its Smokescreen even more effective, while also making its lack of any form of E-Rep/Track-Rep even less of an issue.


The buffed Close Support FT will soon be joining it in possessing multiple infantry-farming weapons after the next patch. I'm curious to see whether that replaces the Light Flanker Tank as the infantry-farming tank of choice (given the 50% delay duly added to each of its many reloads). A coaxial LMG on a full turret isn't something we've seen since the days of the monster that was the Light Howitzer Tank from the Beta, so I've been eagerly hoping that something like this would come.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Shalan" (May 10th 2017, 10:40am)


Posts: 1,791

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

74

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 11:00am

BF1 retains all of the core "repair to win" mechanics of the prior titles and actually introduces a bunch of "features" that make the experience generally shittier. Repair support is just as powerful as ever and you generally need it to score > 60 kill rounds because if you are solo you have to spend a lot of time out of combat simply repairing. Solo tanking while keeping it alive and fighting at ranges relevant to control of any flag generally requires a lot of pulling back to lick wounds which really kills your KPM. Because all prior BF tanks were so much faster, they were a lot easier to solo than the BF1 tanks.

Because of the interrupting nature of the repair cycles, and because of the fact that your tank will get spawned into and stolen if you attempt a hot repair, you really have to extensively withdraw and get away from the k bullets to run cycles, which keeps you out of action for a long time. With repair support in BF1 you can really push up to KPMs of 2.5-3.0 on conq.


It's exactly that downtime which made the new Heavy Tank (with the useless E-Rep) barley playable or enjoyable enough for a solo player. The E-Rep nerf also completely killed off whatever usefulness the Light Howitzer Tank and Arty Truck had to start with. The SS Landship at least offers that heavenly repair cycle and the Light Flanker Tank always provides unrivalled control in areas surrounded by a high-concentration of enemies, which usually is the case if you PTFO. Not to mention the latter's ability to find cover and reliably repair almost anywhere thanks to its profile/turret/firepower combo.


The only other tank worth using is the Standoff SC. Like you recently said, the Heavy Breakthrough Tank and TH Landship are the only tanks lacking in driver controlled infantry-farming weapons. In comparison, the Standoff SC is the only tank that offers MULTIPLE infantry-farming weapons for the driver. With the May update likely introducing the Landship's repair cycle to ALL tanks, the Standoff SC will become the undisputed king of all the heavier tanks and finish off its clean sweep over the competition. The shorter repair cycle will make its Smokescreen even more effective, while also making its lack of any form of E-Rep/Track-Rep even less of an issue.


The buffed Close Support FT will soon be joining it in possessing multiple infantry-farming weapons after the next patch. I'm curious to see whether that replaces the Light Flanker Tank as the infantry-farming tank of choice (given the 50% delay duly added to each of its many reloads). A coaxial LMG on a full turret isn't something we've seen since the days of the monster that was the Light Howitzer Tank from the Beta, so I've been eagerly hoping that something like this would come.


Yup. Like I said before the introduction of the Chamond basically made the A7V obsolete in combination with the E-rep being nerfed into being equivalent to track repair.

SC-standoff is already the undisputed best overall tank in combination of abilities. It's only meanigfully outclassed by a triple-manned SS landship, or a double-manned TH landship. And that isn't a fair comparison. The only thing about the SC is that it's wobbly on terrain but that's easily compensated for with practice.

A7V is just not getting any meaningful love to prevent the situation of the SC just being a straight pay-to-win upgrade over the base game A7V. Lamesauce.

I think the combination of coax lmg and decent derp cannon with a deeper ammo pool with make the close support the go-to light tank. But without good countermeasures and basically a 3 hit kill it's still a POS compared to the heavies.

These changes are nice, but I don't think they really matter since I can't see how they will meaningfully impact the meta and so it's a bit of a pointless exercise.

SC-Standoff will unambiguously be top dog even if CTE changes. Other stuff will just be a little less shitty.

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,022)

Posts: 2,537

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

75

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 11:58am

Well my experience has been vastly different obviously. In games where I was "forced" to man a vehicle there was a blueberry at least once in every round that would non-chalantly swagger over to my tank and repair it. Maybe just for one instance or maybe only for a couple of minutes as a gunner or for the whole life. That happened across all vehicles, too.

At the same time, if I have the torch equipped I often would repair tanks that happen to be close to me. I say, in my gaming experience blueberry repairs as well as other basic teamwork actions were rather common and that includes ammo, heals and revives.

Generally I could never ever really blame a blueberry that got into my vehicle either. Apart from shooting at jets 500m away and spotting me on the minimap, there is no situation where I would say that I would have been better off without a passenger or gunner. Maybe my standards for basic teamplay and relevance are very low, but I never thought it was lacking in previous titles. And certainly I would not blame teammates for stuff which could have been my fault as well.

In BF1 so far, I've been repaired once, that guy stayed with me for a minute, bless his little soul, until he got taken out. I, myself, have never equipped the tool at all so far. This seems to be the case for many supports.

If your gaming experience differs so greatly, I wonder why that is. Maybe there are indeed differences across server locations. Maybe Europeans do rep more, or console players rep more. Very likely we are talking out of different expectations what a teammate should fulfill, which is most likely. Nothing wrong with that.

Posts: 1,791

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

76

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 1:13pm

Well my experience has been vastly different obviously. In games where I was "forced" to man a vehicle there was a blueberry at least once in every round that would non-chalantly swagger over to my tank and repair it. Maybe just for one instance or maybe only for a couple of minutes as a gunner or for the whole life. That happened across all vehicles, too.

At the same time, if I have the torch equipped I often would repair tanks that happen to be close to me. I say, in my gaming experience blueberry repairs as well as other basic teamwork actions were rather common and that includes ammo, heals and revives.

Generally I could never ever really blame a blueberry that got into my vehicle either. Apart from shooting at jets 500m away and spotting me on the minimap, there is no situation where I would say that I would have been better off without a passenger or gunner. Maybe my standards for basic teamplay and relevance are very low, but I never thought it was lacking in previous titles. And certainly I would not blame teammates for stuff which could have been my fault as well.

In BF1 so far, I've been repaired once, that guy stayed with me for a minute, bless his little soul, until he got taken out. I, myself, have never equipped the tool at all so far. This seems to be the case for many supports.

If your gaming experience differs so greatly, I wonder why that is. Maybe there are indeed differences across server locations. Maybe Europeans do rep more, or console players rep more. Very likely we are talking out of different expectations what a teammate should fulfill, which is most likely. Nothing wrong with that.


Probably the difference is that I spend most of my BF time in tanks, you probably don't so I've just got a lot more data to parse. Blueberry repairs just have never been frequent enough to factor them into my tactics. In BF3/BF4 you should be moving constantly until you need to make a shot, and generally re-positioning after a major shootout such that there isn't really time for friendly infantry to trot over.

The only way to have reliable repairs that are actually relevant to playing out a game is a person in your squad on VOIP. Been like that since BF1942. If you're tying yourself to your infantry with a fast tank you're not using the tank to the best of it's capacity. You would expect that in BF1, where you are way more tied to infantry in terms of speed and location because of map design, that repairs would be more common but they aren't because the tool isn't an obvious choice like it was for the engineer in prior titles, because as others have pointed out you lose the far more efficient mortar, or have to give up something like ammo, which is useless compared to random interactions with passing tanks. Titles where you had a segregated anti tank and repair class were even worse for random repairs.

Randomly shooting at shit and getting you spotted in BF3/BF4 is directly contributing to getting you killed, in those cases you are guaranteed better to be alone.

Effective repairs are a dedicated, full time task for people who do it, that generally demands a commitment to collaboration that exceeds what is usually expected from blueberry interactions.

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(2,022)

Posts: 2,537

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

77

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 1:43pm

Oh yeah, that is what I was saying with different expectations. My vehicle kills are at 15% of my total, I believe, while yours will likely be more than 50%. You will likely play the tank with another outcome in mind than myself. For me it was usually on Oman, Lancang and the likes where you had to man all the vehicles to get an edge, I never enjoyed vehicles that much although they straight upgrade your performance.

I also kept my infantry playstyle so I was often right in the thick of it, so naturally I would be repped more. I think in BF1 you are more often away from the action centres, so random repairs are rarer when you are not on flags. Even then though, I believe that nobody has the tool equipped.

I certainly think giving it to support is part of the problem, as only very few would drop the ammo, which is a teamwork tool that helps yourself directly, for a teamwork tool that only has a very situational use. Going with two teamwork tools will also diminish your kill capacity, so there is another reason, as you said yourself.
Giving it back to Assault could help, but not to the extent of BF3/4, simply because you would greatly decrease the vehicle kill capability of the Assault as well. In BF3/4 you had 7 RPGs which was certainly enough to kill a tank. In BF1 you have four rocket guns that will not kill a tank, and you have the AT grenades that do very good burst damage. Removing one of these tools in favour of a repair tool is a tough choice, especially when you bring Mines and Dynamite into this as well.

Personally I think it is a shame that nobody repairs and that the game is not made with vehicle teamplay in mind. A really lovely change would be to give the suport the wrench as a slightly worse melee weapon. Then we would get the situation again that random people would at least stroll over to the tank to repair for a couple of seconds.

Posts: 787

Date of registration
: Dec 3rd 2014

Platform: PS4

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

  • Send private message

78

Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 4:46pm

I tend to think of the side facing machineguns as just glorified passenger seats and the tanks more as APCs. No player should be staying in these seats the whole game. They just exist so that the tank can ferry infantry into the point. The player is given invulnerability to small arms fire and a decent enough MG to use while they wait for a safe/ useful time to jump out. The big problem with these MGs is that when the tank moves, the points where the player aims and where their bullets actually go become completely divorced from one another. This makes them fairly useless most of the time.

As for repairs, there are a few big problems with them:

1. it means losing a powerful support gadget like the HE mortar/ ammo box/ crossbow in order to run the tool and even then there's every chance the random blueberries will just drive off and leave you exposed when you try to help them. So you either die or are left running around with a useless gadget.

2. Soldiers are much more vulnerable while repairing given BF1's movement speeds compared with BF3/4 and can't just bunny hop to safety.

3. Getting in the vehicle now takes time and the rep will usually be finished off if they try to get in after being fired upon.

4. The points for repairing are in no way worth the risk.

5. The tanks can repair themselves, making a wrenchmonkey helpful but not necessary.


1. If you're going to repair, you're going to be doing it consistently and then re-crewing the vehicle such that neither ammo nor the mortar are terribly useful. Much better off going HE Xbow and repair tool and then sticking to the tank. Another reason why you don't get much blueberry repair unless they are medal hunting. You only want to do that stuff for a tanker of "pedigree".

2. Not really. Repair guys typically die to splash effects during improper dismount or getting spammed by air attack or cav grenades. Staying behind the tank is fairly safe from small arms.

4. Most players die without scoring big each life anyway. It's just not worth the points for decent/skilled players. Bottom half players would actually probably do well supporting a strong tank and score better than their average.

5. the tank can't do anything while repairing and the repair can be interrupted. As I stated previously, repair support really multiplies the effectiveness of a tank, basically doubling the KPM. That's huge, like having a whole second tank.


Good points. I'm sure it would be a lot more fun and rewarding doing this with friends. Most of my points were an attempt to explain why I personally don't attempt to run rep for blueberries in pub matches. On the occasions that I have run into a decent tanker/ rep combo on the other team I get messed up pretty bad. Even constant hits from a field gun can't do much. But I member in BF4 I could run repair torch on my standard loadout once all my mines were placed on a previous life and just run around repping random blueberries. In BF1 that just doesn't seem to be worth it. It might be that support has more tempting non-rep gadgets than engineer had in BF3/4.

All that said, i find myself doing it a bit on rush, frontlines and operations, where enemy infantry flanking the tank is less of an issue.

Posts: 113

Date of registration
: Dec 26th 2015

Platform: PC

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

79

Friday, May 19th 2017, 4:24am


A really lovely change would be to give the suport the wrench as a slightly worse melee weapon. Then we would get the situation again that random people would at least stroll over to the tank to repair for a couple of seconds.


I could get behind that for sure.

When I finally notice a halfway decent tanker on my team, I'll grab the repair tool and hang around him as best as I can. One of my pet peeves is when the tanker drives away before I can hop back inside. I think the more inexperienced tankers do this than the opposite.
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

Spoiler Spoiler


General Weapon spreadsheet:
BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
BF4_Gadget_Damage
Interactive Damage Table
bf4_dmg_at_range - Google Sheets
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart