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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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31

Monday, May 1st 2017, 5:29pm

You're basically missing all of the important details with this method, and especially missing the beneficial trade-offs of certain weapons. In your 100m ranking system you will "prove", that no one should ever use the Chau, 1907 trench, Auto .25 ext, etc because they are rightfully horrible weapons at long range (and they start to suck in as little as 20m). However they are the three best short range non-smg or buck guns in the game and have very large stowed kills. That makes them excellent choices in BF1 meta because of the short lethal engagement range in the game. You just need to play accordingly.

100m performance is basically irrelevant compared to 10m performance.

Did you read the original post? Or my previous Scoring posts to see what stances I'm using to do my analysis? Here is a refresher, if you need it:


Hipfire: 2.5m | 5m | 7.5m | 10m | 12.5m | 15m Moving, 2.5m | 5m | 7.5m | 10m | 12.5m | 15m Not Moving

ADS - Moving: 5m | 10m | 15m | 20m | 25m | 30m | 35m | 40m | 45m | 50m | 55m | 60m

ADS - Not Moving: 5m | 10m | 15m | 20m | 30m | 40m | 50m | 60m | 70m | 80m | 90m | 100m

Average engagement distance is ~37m. 1/3 Hipfire, 2/3 ADS. 1/2 Not Moving, 1/2 Moving. 30% Shooting, 20% Recoil, 50% Useability.

In this case, where I try to look at every single gun in the game, I'm not done entering all the Hitrater values from 1st-shot to 6th-shot, for 32 Stances, for 85 guns. That's 6 * 32 * 85 = 16320 entries. I've done about half, and it is the 1st time I've ever looked at Support LMGs (with their weird shooting mechanic).

From the data I have right now, I'm just kinda surprised that LMGs in general, and the Huot in particular, keep showing up near the top my leaderboard for everything I've looked at so far. Hence this thread, which is more of a "hey! I can make a case for the Huot > Automatico Storm in 15m Hipfire Moving! Huot > BAR Telescopic in 60m ADS Moving! Huot > M1916 Marksman in 100m ADS Not Moving! maybe the Huot is something I ought to be using!"

So I use it. See attachment. Bottom is Soissons Frontline, top is Sinai CQL. Pretty sure I got a couple of 100m off-hand kills, in Sinai for sure. 90% Hitrate for the 1st bullet in that case. Yeah, maybe the guy was already injured from being hit by a Scout Rifle, and I merely nicked him with my first bullet and gotten the kill. That's my sorta-problem with that "kill distance" recording... it only captures confirmed Kills, which is not the same as ATTEMPTED Kills.
Veritable has attached the following file:
  • huot.png (60.09 kB - 19 times downloaded - latest: May 11th 2017, 10:35am)

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Veritable" (May 1st 2017, 5:50pm)


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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32

Monday, May 1st 2017, 10:49pm

What would that look like without bursting, since you really shouldn't be doing that with MGs.

Alright, made a Google Sheets just for this: BF1 LMG Triggered Until Done - Google Sheets Shooter holds down trigger until reaching damage target (currently set to 200), based on Spread * Damage, at 100m ADS Not Moving.

  1. BAR 1918 Telescopic - 1.483333333s
  2. BAR 1918 Storm / BAR 1918 Trench - 1.883333333s
  3. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic - 1.983333333s
  4. Madsen MG Low Weight - 2.1s
  5. M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical - 2.116666667s
  6. MG15 N.A. Low Weight / MG15 N.A. Storm / MG15 N.A. Suppressive - 2.15s
  7. Chauchat Telescopic - 2.166666667s
  8. Madsen MG Storm / Madsen MG Trench - 2.216666667s
  9. Huot Automatic Low Weight - 2.266666667s
  10. Lewis Gun Optical - 2.366666667s
  11. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm - 2.383333333s
  12. Chauchat Low Weight - 2.5s
  13. Lewis Gun Low Weight / Lewis Gun Suppressive- 2.616666667s

In case anyone is still interested, now that we have the Huot Optical's stats, I've added it to the "Triggered Until Done" sheet. Here are the updated lists.

Damage Target 200, comparable to the quoted list above.

  1. BAR 1918 Telescopic - 1.483333333s
  2. BAR 1918 Storm / BAR 1918 Trench - 1.883333333s
  3. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic - 1.983333333s
  4. Madsen MG Low Weight - 2.1s
  5. M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical - 2.116666667s
  6. Huot Automatic Optical - 2.133333333s
  7. MG15 N.A. Low Weight / MG15 N.A. Storm / MG15 N.A. Suppressive - 2.15s
  8. Chauchat Telescopic - 2.166666667s
  9. Madsen MG Storm / Madsen MG Trench - 2.216666667s
  10. Huot Automatic Low Weight - 2.266666667s
  11. Lewis Gun Optical - 2.366666667s
  12. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm - 2.383333333s
  13. Chauchat Low Weight - 2.5s
  14. Lewis Gun Low Weight / Lewis Gun Suppressive - 2.616666667s


More interestingly, dropping the Damage Target down to 100, results in the Huot Optical being FASTER than the B-M Telescopic / Optical. Both expects to achieve the "kill" at the 10th shot, which you can say that the Huot's superior Spread making up the 4dmg per shot deficit of its "inferior" damage model. At the 10th shot, that's making up 40dmg potential. H-Recoil is not even taken into consideration yet; expect the gap to widen if it were.

  1. BAR 1918 Telescopic - 0.8833333333s
  2. BAR 1918 Storm / BAR 1918 Trench - 1.083333333s
  3. Madsen MG Low Weight - 1.216666667s
  4. Huot Automatic Optical - 1.25s
  5. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic / M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical / MG15 N.A. Low Weight / Madsen MG Storm / Madsen MG Trench - 1.316666667s
  6. Chauchat Telescopic - 1.333333333s
  7. Huot Automatic Low Weight - 1.383333333s
  8. MG15 N.A. Storm / MG15 N.A. Suppressive - 1.433333333s
  9. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm - 1.45s
  10. Lewis Gun Optical / Lewis Gun Low Weight - 1.483333333s
  11. Chauchat Low Weight - 1.5s
  12. Lewis Gun Suppressive - 1.616666667s

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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33

Monday, May 1st 2017, 11:24pm

Sorry for the triple-post. Attached is a graphical presentation of the above, where the Huot Optical is able to use its superior Spread values to make up the lower Damage per hit when compared to the B-M Telescopic. Also present, for context, are the "best" (BAR Telescopic) and "worst" (Lewis Suppressive).

2nd attached is for those wondering exactly how the Huot Optical "improves" over the Low Weight. The Optical is better from 1st to 4th shot. LW better from 5th to 7th, due to the LW hitting Min-Spread at the 6th shot. Then the Optical hits ITS Min-Spread at the 7th shot, and thus it takes over the crown and keeps it from then onwards.
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Tuesday, May 2nd 2017, 4:32pm



Finally, a blurb on the current "bestgun" according to me, for each type. This is extremely preliminary, and may change as I continue to fill in the Hitrater values. For now, though, I stand by them.

Best LMG: Huot Automatic Low Weight
Best SMG: MP 18 Trench
Best Shotgun: 12g Automatic Backbored
Best SLR: Autoloading 8 .35 Factory
Best SAR: Gewehr M.95 Carbine
Best Sidearm (All Classes): P08 Pistol
Best Sidearm (Class Specific): Taschenpistole M1914 (Medic)


What made you change your mind on the Medic pistol? In your scoring you said Mle1903 is best medic pistol.

Also why exactly PO8 all classes?

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Wednesday, May 3rd 2017, 5:54pm



Finally, a blurb on the current "bestgun" according to me, for each type. This is extremely preliminary, and may change as I continue to fill in the Hitrater values. For now, though, I stand by them.

Best LMG: Huot Automatic Low Weight
Best SMG: MP 18 Trench
Best Shotgun: 12g Automatic Backbored
Best SLR: Autoloading 8 .35 Factory
Best SAR: Gewehr M.95 Carbine
Best Sidearm (All Classes): P08 Pistol
Best Sidearm (Class Specific): Taschenpistole M1914 (Medic)


What made you change your mind on the Medic pistol? In your scoring you said Mle1903 is best medic pistol.

Also why exactly PO8 all classes?
I was wondering about that for myself.
I would have thought that the best sidearm for all classes would be the MLE or maybe the C93.
Im still looking for my goto sidearm.
For medic its a tie between the Auto Revolver and the MLE/C93.
Normally it would be a nobrainer for the MLE/C93 but the TTK below 10m makes the Bulldog quite good as "main" weapon for CQC.

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Friday, May 5th 2017, 12:08am

You're basically missing all of the important details with this method, and especially missing the beneficial trade-offs of certain weapons. In your 100m ranking system you will "prove", that no one should ever use the Chau, 1907 trench, Auto .25 ext, etc because they are rightfully horrible weapons at long range (and they start to suck in as little as 20m). However they are the three best short range non-smg or buck guns in the game and have very large stowed kills. That makes them excellent choices in BF1 meta because of the short lethal engagement range in the game. You just need to play accordingly.

100m performance is basically irrelevant compared to 10m performance.

Did you read the original post? Or my previous Scoring posts to see what stances I'm using to do my analysis? Here is a refresher, if you need it:


Hipfire: 2.5m | 5m | 7.5m | 10m | 12.5m | 15m Moving, 2.5m | 5m | 7.5m | 10m | 12.5m | 15m Not Moving

ADS - Moving: 5m | 10m | 15m | 20m | 25m | 30m | 35m | 40m | 45m | 50m | 55m | 60m

ADS - Not Moving: 5m | 10m | 15m | 20m | 30m | 40m | 50m | 60m | 70m | 80m | 90m | 100m

Average engagement distance is ~37m. 1/3 Hipfire, 2/3 ADS. 1/2 Not Moving, 1/2 Moving. 30% Shooting, 20% Recoil, 50% Useability.

In this case, where I try to look at every single gun in the game, I'm not done entering all the Hitrater values from 1st-shot to 6th-shot, for 32 Stances, for 85 guns. That's 6 * 32 * 85 = 16320 entries. I've done about half, and it is the 1st time I've ever looked at Support LMGs (with their weird shooting mechanic).

From the data I have right now, I'm just kinda surprised that LMGs in general, and the Huot in particular, keep showing up near the top my leaderboard for everything I've looked at so far. Hence this thread, which is more of a "hey! I can make a case for the Huot > Automatico Storm in 15m Hipfire Moving! Huot > BAR Telescopic in 60m ADS Moving! Huot > M1916 Marksman in 100m ADS Not Moving! maybe the Huot is something I ought to be using!"

So I use it. See attachment. Bottom is Soissons Frontline, top is Sinai CQL. Pretty sure I got a couple of 100m off-hand kills, in Sinai for sure. 90% Hitrate for the 1st bullet in that case. Yeah, maybe the guy was already injured from being hit by a Scout Rifle, and I merely nicked him with my first bullet and gotten the kill. That's my sorta-problem with that "kill distance" recording... it only captures confirmed Kills, which is not the same as ATTEMPTED Kills.


I did, but in relation to the OP and prior posts, my understanding is that you rated all stances/ranges equally in the final score. This just isn't representative of the engagements in BF1, where the close ranges really utterly dominates.

It simply doesn't convey the deliberate balancing design where close range weapons trade off against the other weapons at longer ranges. It devalues objectively good weapons (at what they do) because they are balanced in that regards.

In messy clusterfucks like Vaux and the like you should be using weapons like the Chau, .25 ext, 1907 variants, buck guns, automaticos. Otherwise you're stuck playing the periphery where you can open up the distance a bit and enforce intervalled 1v1s.

Your analysis makes a lot more sense for something that has meta like BF4 where you've got a lot of fairly similar weapons, not a range-segregated pool of weapons.

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Wednesday, May 10th 2017, 10:42pm

Still waiting for Veritable to clarify why P08 is a good pistol overall. same with the Taschenpistole.

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