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  • "Veritable" started this thread

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21

Sunday, April 30th 2017, 7:26am

The Benet optical deals more min damage and is about 12% more accurate than the Huot. The Huot base spread translates to about 10.8 minutes of angle (MOA), about 31cm or 12" at 100m. So if someone is facing you standing straight up, and you aim perefectly center, that spread might barely land all min-damage hits. But let's say you're 70% accurate. That's 10 shots to kill (if he stays put.), so that's 1.26-seconds to kill (10 rounds at 475RPM).

The Benet's spread comes to around 10.5" (27cm) @100m. So it should require one less round to score seven hits. So the Benet delivers the 7 hits in 1.2 seconds. But wait, the Benet only needs 6!

You're forgetting Spread Increase (well Decrease in LMGs' cases) Per Shot and also SIPS First Shot Modifier. Here are the per-shot Spread values for the Huot LW and the B-M Optical, ADS Not Moving.

1st shot: 0.18 vs. 0.158
2nd shot: 0.604 vs. 0.722
3rd shot: 0.498 vs. 0.628
4th shot: 0.392 vs. 0.534
5th shot: 0.286 vs. 0.44
6th shot: 0.18 vs. 0.346

Cumulative 6RB spread values: 2.14 vs. 2.828

Since the Huot's projectile does 15dmg at 100m, while the B-M does 19dmg, this translate to the following expected 6RB damage at 100m: 31.7355 vs. 30.3468

Even discounting H-Recoil, the Huot lands more hits vs. the B-M Optical in any burst length except single shot. Then, we know it has lower H-Recoil. It also has higher RoF. So, I think the Huot LW is better than the B-M Optical.

Anyways, here are the Race-to-200 shooting + recovery times for every LMG at 100m ADS Not Moving. Calculated from Spread values only; H-Recoil is discounted. Chauchats, with their higher damage, shoots 3RB-then-recovers. All the rest shoots 5RB-then-recovers.

  1. Huot Automatic Low Weight - 3.933333333s
  2. BAR 1918 Telescopic / Madsen MG Low Weight - 4.033333333s
  3. Chauchat Low Weight - 4.916666667s
  4. Chauchat Telescopic - 5.016666667s
  5. BAR 1918 Storm / BAR 1918 Trench - 5.15s
  6. M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical - 5.216666667s
  7. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic - 5.216666667s
  8. MG15 N.A. Low Weight / Madsen MG Storm / Madsen MG Trench- 5.583333333s
  9. Lewis Gun Low Weight - 6.066666667s
  10. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm - 6.15s
  11. Lewis Gun Optical - 6.55s
  12. Lewis Gun Suppressive - 7.433333333s
  13. MG15 N.A. Storm / MG15 N.A. Suppressive - 8.5s

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Sunday, April 30th 2017, 7:45am

What would that look like without bursting, since you really shouldn't be doing that with MGs.
Who has fun, wins.

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Sunday, April 30th 2017, 11:10am

What would that look like without bursting, since you really shouldn't be doing that with MGs.

Alright, made a Google Sheets just for this: BF1 LMG Triggered Until Done - Google Sheets Shooter holds down trigger until reaching damage target (currently set to 200), based on Spread * Damage, at 100m ADS Not Moving.

  1. BAR 1918 Telescopic - 1.483333333s
  2. BAR 1918 Storm / BAR 1918 Trench - 1.883333333s
  3. M1909 Benet-Mercie Telescopic - 1.983333333s
  4. Madsen MG Low Weight - 2.1s
  5. M1909 Benet-Mercie Optical - 2.116666667s
  6. MG15 N.A. Low Weight / MG15 N.A. Storm / MG15 N.A. Suppressive - 2.15s
  7. Chauchat Telescopic - 2.166666667s
  8. Madsen MG Storm / Madsen MG Trench - 2.216666667s
  9. Huot Automatic Low Weight - 2.266666667s
  10. Lewis Gun Optical - 2.366666667s
  11. M1909 Benet-Mercie Storm - 2.383333333s
  12. Chauchat Low Weight - 2.5s
  13. Lewis Gun Low Weight / Lewis Gun Suppressive- 2.616666667s

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Sunday, April 30th 2017, 10:53pm

Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.

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Monday, May 1st 2017, 4:38am

Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.

Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.


Exactly.

So if I ever decide I'm going to dance with scouts (or is it die by scout?) using an LMG, I'll give the Huot a try.

Best gun for you, not for me. Thank goodness there's more than one.

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Monday, May 1st 2017, 6:52am

Quoted from "tankmayvin"
Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.



Exactly.

So if I ever decide I'm going to dance with scouts (or is it die by scout?) using an LMG, I'll give the Huot a try.

Best gun for you, not for me. Thank goodness there's more than one.


I think what tankmayvin was saying was that most LMG engagements are well under 100m, and that if you're engaging at over 100m, you're either using a telescopic variant or not using your LMG to the best of its ability.
The Huot performs reasonably well for its iron sights - especially within normal ranges.
Miffyli had a good post about average engagement distances for BF1 here
While it might be slightly dated, the engagement distances don't change by that much. 75% of all engagements happen UNDER 37m. And even 90% of engagements fall under 75m.
It comes down to effectiveness of your weapon at a certain range. As I'm a new user to the Huot (First used it last Friday actually), I enjoyed using it, because it was effective at a variety of ranges.
I haven't found a situation where it was the best LMG at a specific range, it just seemed to perform well all around. I'm going to have to use it more often, so that I can formulate a better opinion, but the first impressions are quite nice.
For me, it all comes down to that low H-Recoil. (I just wish the AA sights didn't bother me so much. I can't say why they bother me though. Blame it on my ADD)
I love the math behind the statistics
It's possible to find me online at almost any given time, due to the fact that my schedule is hectic and rather non-existent.

Who needs sleep anyways?
(PC/PS4 gamer)

Various bf4 spreadsheets: (nothing special, just raw data from the Symthic website put into a spreadsheet to analyze all values at once)

Spoiler Spoiler


General Weapon spreadsheet:
BF4_Weapons_enhanced_UPDATED_2016
Soldier Equipment:
BF4_Gadget_Damage
Interactive Damage Table
bf4_dmg_at_range - Google Sheets
Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
bf4_sniper_guide
Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Charts
Suppressed bf4_sniper_guide
More user friendly Unsuppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Sniper rifle Bullet Drop Chart
More user friendly Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart
Friendlier Suppressed Sniper Rifle Bullet Drop Chart

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "lope_a_dope" (May 1st 2017, 8:19am) with the following reason: I'm an idiot at times and forget the obvious.


  • "Veritable" started this thread

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27

Monday, May 1st 2017, 7:41am

Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.

Because it is an apples-to-apples comparison. LMGs vs. LMGs. And, in order to get a meaningful separation of results, I picked the longest range that I have Hitrates on.

I can produce the same list at 10m, where every single shot from every gun hits 100% (I think). Then you don't need to do any analysis... since all LMGs have similar damaging projectiles, then just rank guns based on RoF. It's right here.

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Monday, May 1st 2017, 9:47am

I think the Huot is an Allrounder like the Cei-Rigotti. It performs decent at any range.

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Monday, May 1st 2017, 10:38am

Personally I think the Huot, along with the BM optical, are the 2 MG's that have the longest effective kill distance. (Scratching a scout, getting his attention then getting sweetspotted is not effective) And the longest approx. distance that I will engage with them are 5x m. Even 60m is stretching it. So I think 50 or 60m would be better distances to gauge long range performance for BF1's LMG.

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Monday, May 1st 2017, 12:09pm

Why do you keep using 100m?

It's a totally irrelevant engagement range for LMGs, and infantry combat in general.

At 100m you're only getting a meaningful sight picture with the tele weapons anyway.

Because it is an apples-to-apples comparison. LMGs vs. LMGs. And, in order to get a meaningful separation of results, I picked the longest range that I have Hitrates on.

I can produce the same list at 10m, where every single shot from every gun hits 100% (I think). Then you don't need to do any analysis... since all LMGs have similar damaging projectiles, then just rank guns based on RoF. It's right here.


Why would you be ranking based on ROF?

Chau chau has a low ROF but a stellar TTK < 10m, and with a 3 BTK, has the second best stowed kills per mag after the Auto .25 ext in CQB.

I think there is a fundamental flaw in your analysis here: you're using data at 100m and thus recovering the asymptotic behaviour of weapons at their extremes. But all of the interesting trade offs happen at much shorter ranges. As little as 10m for the Chau, for eg.

You're basically missing all of the important details with this method, and especially missing the beneficial trade-offs of certain weapons. In your 100m ranking system you will "prove", that no one should ever use the Chau, 1907 trench, Auto .25 ext, etc because they are rightfully horrible weapons at long range (and they start to suck in as little as 20m). However they are the three best short range non-smg or buck guns in the game and have very large stowed kills. That makes them excellent choices in BF1 meta because of the short lethal engagement range in the game. You just need to play accordingly.

100m performance is basically irrelevant compared to 10m performance.

Personally I think the Huot, along with the BM optical, are the 2 MG's that have the longest effective kill distance. (Scratching a scout, getting his attention then getting sweetspotted is not effective) And the longest approx. distance that I will engage with them are 5x m. Even 60m is stretching it. So I think 50 or 60m would be better distances to gauge long range performance for BF1's LMG.


Because of the way BF1 gun balancing works, ranking guns based on range is basically only useful to rank them at that specific range. It tells you very little about how good the gun is at other (more statistically relevant) ranges.

The best gun at 10m is not the best gun at 20-30m, is not the best gun at 50-60m, etc.

This is one of the biggest gripes people seem to have about BF1 gun balance: weapons are heavily slotted into specific ranges of utility. The close range optimized weapons (1907, Chau, .25 Ext, buck guns, automatico) are pretty crappy outside of 20-30m and far from the best choices often even > 10m. The Chau for eg runs into trouble on a TTK basis at 12 m and by 30 m basically stops killing fast enough in combination with rec to make engagement meaningful. You can't capture any of this with a 50m ranking metric, nor can you let players intelligently pick their weapons. The Huot is a great gun past 20 m, probably the best LMG beyond that range until you start missing more from the iron than you would from the BM's rec. But that's not going to help you in a trench or hallway fight many of the maps restrict you to.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (May 1st 2017, 12:25pm)


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