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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:40am

How to fix the Sniper problem (Non PTO snipers)

How to solve the problem of players choosing not to engage in the objective and having negative impact on the game by choosing the sniper class.


I don't feel the need to explain why people camping and not PTO makes for boring games for everyone so I will skip over the reasoning for and get straight into how I feel we can fix this problem.


My Idea is one that doesn't negatively impact players who choose to play the objective as a sniper limit does it instead will always let players who are not the problem to play as snipers whilst giving others a chance to get the same privilege.




Sniper "licence"


I feel players should have to earn the ability to pick scout/sniper whenever they want and a "Licence" is the solution to harming the enjoyment of those who are not part of the problem.

At the beginning of the game sniper class would be treated as a vehicle as in its a limited asset but players who don't camp and actually play the role effectively will always be able to choose it.


The way the game will determine who deserves to be able to pick sniper whenever they want will be how high your KPM with a sniper is and not necessarily flags capped because good infantry players like myself often leave the cap zone or don't cap first two flags that will be uncontested for example.

Obviously more stats should be involved then just KPM as I realise a lot of players will try to play the role effectively and be unable to get a good KPM because lack of experience.



User interface changes

This feature will only work if the game explains to the players that you will be rewarded for not camping by being able to play the class whenever you want and "punished" if you choose to camp.



I would also like to say that I don't think you should be able to Play sniper in DOM or TDM as it ruins the game modes.

In team deathmatch people camp with snipers and make the game so slow and boring seeing as for some reason people like to camp in that game mode already.


The map design for TDM was really not thought out well as most maps have ladders and other spots where you can camp and it really is frustrating because I feel TDM should be about getting better at gun skills but they camp. (sad thing is they don't even do good they really are terrible)

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:57am

Please avoid using abnormal font sizes for the whole posts. Using it to highlight some parts or do headings is alright, but different sizes/colors shouldn't be used for the whole text.
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 12:10pm

On topic: no. It's a stupid idea.

In pubs you can't force a specific amount of each class. People will pick what they want, be it detrimental or beneficial to the team.

Your suggestion is also half assed. You mention how the game would look at KPM and "other stats" but you don't even elaborate on what metrics would be used. It's like "yeah I want this for reasons".

Also, for the record, the class isn't sniper, it's Scout. I don't disagree with the fact that some locations chosen for TDM/Dom provide too many vantage points or "camping spots" that harm those looking for a more aggressive playstyle, but Scout gadgets and to an extent guns can be effectively used on those modes. "camping" isn't exclude to scout, you can do the same with any class provided your gun is useful on the position you're at. A shotgun guy "camping" on an indoor section will fuck you up as much as a medic with a 1906 will fuck you up in open areas.
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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 2:20pm

I consider the problem to be most severe on Rush, largely because of its extended engagement distances and much lower player count. It also happens to be my favourite and most played gamemode. I respect your opinion but I think such a system is far too complicated and stems from the somewhat reductive 'camping is bad' argument.

I will not comment on Conquest too much as I do not play it often enough, though I will say that the few times I played the armored kill custom game mode, the mode felt less random with the complete omission of snipers


Issues with snipers on Rush;

- A lack of team play contribution. Sniping are inherently the most anti-PTFO style of play. Much like it is easy for the average or new player frag people using an Automatico with little regard to objective play , it is equally easy to do with sniping, even if they are not actually getting many kills to begin with. Unfortunately, sniping also extends the lifetime of such players as they are usually far from objectives with weapons that require a degree of technical competence. It is easy for a seasoned player to hit a moving target with a high velocity sniper rifle, but for the average or novice player, it simply is not. What this results in is deaths by overwhelming sniper density rather than a smaller amount of technically competent snipers. This density reduces other useful kits, such as the Medic which is invaluable in Rush and having them replaced by. In otherwords, there is low class diversity

- Making certain maps frustrating due to frequent OHK. I do not dislike the sweetspot mechanic in concept but when an attacking team consists of 10/12 snipers, it becomes a pointless war of attrition in which the Defenders know that they are going to win however the round devolves into a stalemate. Maps such as Sinai, Ballroom and Seuz (First part) fall victim easily to this, which is a shame as they play out really well in Rush. (As a side note, I actually used to dislike Sinai but there is actually plenty of cover in the form of elevation changes, canyons, trenches, boulders etc, and has become one of my favourite Rush maps.)

Mind you this problem has existed since Bad Company 2. Snipers always had a tendency to stagnate the rush game mode. Fortunately, many servers enforced hard sniper limits which killed off players getting kills with any sniper rifle. This system alleviated this issue but at the same time, was very player unfriendly as not everyone reads the chat box, or the semi-functional yells or possibly not even being English speakers.

A good compromise is to limit the Marksman and Sniper variants of weapons rather than the entire class itself. Weapons such as Infantry bolt actions are less likely to be played beyond 100m. Furthermore, weapons such as the M1903 experimental, Russian 1895 Trench and to a lesser extent, Carbines can perform very well in the close range environment (I am of the opinion that tanker class weapons should be accessible to scouts if not all kits in general). For the Rush game mode, a limit on these weapons should just be default to begin with. Having 50% of an attacking 12 player team wielding sniper rifles is just baffling and is bound to create issues.

Would also like to mention that a scout using sniping type weapons playing within their sweetspot range or just really good at headshots, can be invaluable as they can pick of enemies trying to arm or disarm the Telegraph posts. A team does not need 6 snipers do this.

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 2:52pm

Nothing you can do or suggest will ever stop Billy Bob from playing his favorite class, and hard class limits are arbitrary and contrary to the spirit of Battlefield. I say this as someone who utterly detests an entire team of worthless snipers that are allergic to objectives, on either team


It's one of these issues that will never go away, and proposed solutions will just frustrate other players. Kind of like lopsided games and forced team balancing

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 3:09pm

On topic: no. It's a stupid idea.


Can you elaborate why?
People not participating at all affects everyone negatively.

For the losers its not fun when the other team effectively has 2X the players because half of yours are camping.
For the winners its boring when there's no one to fight and pushing enemy team all the way back with no resistance.

Deciding to join CQL and camp all game is selfish and the excuse of "play how I like" isn't correct because it would be like playing chess with people and then using the chess board as a Frisbee.

I guess whether the problem is relevant depends on how experienced the player is to a degree as someone who can pubs stomp will notice it much more then a regular player who finds every 1v1 encounter exciting and sees winning as more important then a balanced challenging match.





Quoted

In pubs you can't force a specific amount of each class. People will pick what they want, be it detrimental or beneficial to the team.

Im not sure if you understand my solution perhaps that's my fault for not being clear.

There is a limit but only if you fall into the category of not playing the objective so there is a limit and there isn't.
A group of players who are actually playing properly will always get to pick sniper class but the player who camps and doesn't do anything will have to spawn into class in limit numbers as if they where trying to tank or pilot.





Quoted

Also, for the record, the class isn't sniper, it's Scout.


I really think this is semantics, I assure you I am fully aware of what the classes are called in this game go ahead and look at my stats linked in my profile.




Quoted

I don't disagree with the fact that some locations chosen for TDM/Dom provide too many vantage points or "camping spots" that harm those looking for a more aggressive playstyle, but Scout gadgets and to an extent guns can be effectively used on those modes. "camping" isn't exclude to scout, you can do the same with any class provided your gun is useful on the position you're at. A shotgun guy "camping" on an indoor section will fuck you up as much as a medic with a 1906 will fuck you up in open areas.

No sorry but Snipers don't help in dom as a good reg gunner will always beat them and can be much more effective on the flag burn.

On Sinai for example you don't want to hold the water tower anyway as its a spawn trap.

You are correct any class can camp but lets be realistic who are known as the universal campers in BF?

It is also worth noting that the difference between camping snipers and camping other class is that other classes probably get there kills on or near the cap so the kills the sniper gets don't even matter there is also a difference between camping on a mountain and near an objective like LMG rooms on amiens.

Snipers make DOM unplayable because they are so useless, DOM is the game mode used for competitive but I don't bother playing pub dom because its nothing like Scrim DOM so the most you can learn is spawns as people don't even play the game properly so whats the point.





Quoted

A good compromise is to limit the Marksman and Sniper variants of weapons rather than the entire class itself. Weapons such as Infantry bolt actions are less likely to be played beyond 100m.

Infantry snipers are the cancer on console thanks to DICE adding Autorotation assist (something no good players use ) because they don't even need to aim at you they just snap straight onto you and thanks to the cancer that is the sweetspot that means OHK most of the time.

DICE rewards these "PTO snipers" a OHK or kill assist for just aiming and shooting even when they have not cantered there screen at all on target.

But autorotation being removed from console is another topic and theres no argument it needs to be removed as me and other players don't use it and can get 100+ kill 10KD games on Argonne CQL without complimentary aimbot that rewards useless players.

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 3:21pm

Yeah gotta say this idea is half assed. Personally I hate snipers in any shooter. They effectively remove mid-long range cover based combat from the game. The insistence on them always having OHK to the head pretty much makes any attempt to engage in long range fights with non-sniper weapons pointless unless you are willing to dance about and hope the sniper can't hit (see BF4). Every other weapon class has spread/ recoil/ damage drop off to worry about. Snipers are just point and click. I understand that other people like them, so I would never suggest this sort of system, but they really do limit my enjoyment with shooters. I always try to imagine the fun that could be had if players actually engaged at 80m+ with LMGs and SLRs, and suppression fire and volume of fire were actually important. Instead every fight at that range is "did you bring a sniper rifle or not?" It's just plain boring and I think it's another reason why so many people gravitate towards shotguns and SMGs. They give up trying to fire at long range after being sniped repeatedly.

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 3:55pm

Yeah gotta say this idea is half assed.


How?

If you don't sit on a mountain and camp all game you can pick a sniper whnever you want but if you want to camp and be useless then you can spawn as one you just have to get to it before other people do JUST LIKE VEHICLES.



The idea is one that lets people camp in small numbers and let people who PTO snipe whenever they want, it isn't a limit except for people who camp.



It would stop the entire team camping on Siuez when pushed back.



Give me an argument as to why my idea is bad when it limits damage done by snipers camping, lets people camp while sniping and doesn't hurt players who PTO while they snipe.

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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 6:12pm

How can non-PTO be a problem in TDM, where there are no objectives? That's the perfect place for players who just want kills.
DOM? I have never seen a problem here. The maps are too small. Maybe people camp, but they don't have much impact on the round and by not PTO, their team can lose in under 5 minutes.

Want to experience sniping? Try playing Soissons Front Line. That led me to be a major scout-basher until I learned how to deal with them. Now, while playing support, I can be almost as big a threat to them as they are to me.

Now the only scouts I truly hate are the ones on my team who leave us blind by not using their freaking flares.

The only practical ways I see to nerf scouts are:
1. Take away the sweet spot for scoped rifles or
2. Put them on the map like a mortar if they camp too long away from an objective. Or maybe automatically spot them for 25 seconds following an OHK in the seeet spot.

I refer to scopes only. It takes some cajones to play with infantry rifles. I've tried and didn't like it.

But it's a moot point. Too many people want to snipe and DICE isn't going to risk losing that market.

Just learn to deal with them.

BTW, I'm in my 50s, never played console or FPS, ever, until my teen son got this game about 3 months ago. He had to tell me what buttons did what at first.

Even I have learned how to flank & kill campers when I spawn back in. I'm probably mediocre at it at best, but if I can learn to do it, anyone can

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "OldBFAddict" (Apr 13th 2017, 6:43pm)


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Thursday, April 13th 2017, 7:12pm

Meh. Campers gonna camp. If they're not camping far away with a sniper being completely useless, they're lingering in a corner a few meters away from the objective areas scared to death of getting shot at while getting cheap kills on unsuspecting enemies.