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61

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 1:32pm

In the 12m to 15m range I do not find that the mp18 performs noticeably consequentially better. By consequential I mean losing kills/dying. At 15 meters it's ttk is worse than 10(?) weapons and better than 6. At 20 meters it's ttk it is worse than 8 weapons and better than 8 by my count. That is mediocre as I stated before. This doesn't include spread and recoil, which would have the slrs and some lmgs pull even further ahead. Successful players succeed by engaging enemies on terms that favor them. This is more difficult with the mp18/Ribeyolles than the Automatico and many of the better LMGs/SLRs because their "sweetspot" isn't very sweet. They are actually a bit below the average if anything.
Symthic TTK charts don't account for the effect of spread when calculating. What is shown on the charts is not representative of actual TTK.

The spread and horizontal recoil for the MP18 and Ribeyolles are not significant enough below 22m/28m to cause it to start missing and lose to most LMG's and SLR's. However, LMG's experience a huge jump in spread during their first shots and SLR's gain significant spread if fired at their maximum firerate, making them miss more within the MP18's and Ribeyolles' ideal range. The latter two can maintain acceptable accuracy while moving against the former categories of weapons (which cannot) within 28m. Even the BAR and Madsen don't do spectacularly well against them, despite their high raw damage rates and Trench variants.

The Automatico loses much of its DPS beyond 12m because of spread and horizontal recoil. The Hellriegel starts losing to the MP18 and Ribeyolles the moment it reaches 5m for the same reason. Again, pick a competence zone: 0-12m, or 12m-22/28m?
Ill posed problem/solution.

Fact: close range dominates BF1 lethal engagements from the best data we have.

Fact: MP18 sucks at the most common lethal engagement range in the game.

Fact: Automatico still works out to 20 m range, it's just not bestgun.

So with Mp18 you are guaranteed to lose at the range that matters the most in exchange for being better at a range that isn't relevant. 22-28 is a deadly range for auto 8 too, so it's not like MP18 is even dominant in that range bracket in the meta sense.


I still don't really get how this average kill distance data effects me or any other player that fights mostly at mid range. Just because a lot of players choose to fight at close range a lot, that doesn't have any bearing on my engagements does it? I'm not meaning to sound confrontational, I just honestly don't get the relevance of the numbers to actual gameplay.

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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62

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 3:03pm

To your actual gameplay, maybe not. It however affects the broad mass that plays this game, and is told to be on the objective which reduces engagement ranges to a minimum. Or they play the opposite and rage at the back with their scoped BAs. For most people there is no middle ground.

Personally I do not see how I can play with medium range engagements only and still be able to fulfil my supportive role and the objective play. Map design, gun mechanics, visual stuff and 64 players really prevent me from playing the game how I was playing BF for 7 years now.
I am having an awful time right now, when playing BF and the inconsistency of my performance regarding maps, modes and weapons is really frustrating. This frustration seems to be rather common among the playerbase, it is really mind boggling, how people seem to have so little fun with this game, after the initial hype that followed the announcement and the kudos the devs got for their setting. Whatever DICE had in mind with this game, I think they could not deliver their message to the people.

Edit: Geez, totally got carried away in my answer. :D

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Apr 6th 2017, 3:09pm)


This post by "Captain Qwark" (Thursday, April 6th 2017, 8:48pm) has been deleted by the author himself (Thursday, April 6th 2017, 8:52pm)

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Thursday, April 6th 2017, 9:21pm

Quoted from "Captain Qwark"
In the 12m to 15m range I do not find that the mp18 performs noticeably consequentially better. By consequential I mean losing kills/dying. At 15 meters it's ttk is worse than 10(?) weapons and better than 6. At 20 meters it's ttk it is worse than 8 weapons and better than 8 by my count. That is mediocre as I stated before. This doesn't include spread and recoil, which would have the slrs and some lmgs pull even further ahead. Successful players succeed by engaging enemies on terms that favor them. This is more difficult with the mp18/Ribeyolles than the Automatico and many of the better LMGs/SLRs because their "sweetspot" isn't very sweet. They are actually a bit below the average if anything.
Symthic TTK charts don't account for the effect of spread when calculating. What is shown on the charts is not representative of actual TTK.

The spread and horizontal recoil for the MP18 and Ribeyolles are not significant enough below 22m/28m to cause it to start missing and lose to most LMG's and SLR's. However, LMG's experience a huge jump in spread during their first shots and SLR's gain significant spread if fired at their maximum firerate, making them miss more within the MP18's and Ribeyolles' ideal range. The latter two can maintain acceptable accuracy while moving against the former categories of weapons (which cannot) within 28m. Even the BAR and Madsen don't do spectacularly well against them, despite their high raw damage rates and Trench variants.

The Automatico loses much of its DPS beyond 12m because of spread and horizontal recoil. The Hellriegel starts losing to the MP18 and Ribeyolles the moment it reaches 5m for the same reason. Again, pick a competence zone: 0-12m, or 12m-22/28m?
Mp18 optical has .495 spread before the killing shot. Cei-Rigotti optical has .408 spread before the killing shot. It is true that the mp18 optical variant is better than the worst spread slrs, but it is unfair to compare the best(usable) from one to the worst from another. Mp18 variants are mediocre in spread compared to SLRs in general. I would compare them to LMGs but I don't have time. Perhaps with those included the mp18s may be above the average, but that would certainly not make them versatile enough to be worth using over the Automatico. They also remain far less versatile than lmgs and SLRs as a whole. As tankmayvin said, the mp18 gives up the most valuable niche in the game for a small and much less valuable one.

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65

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 10:38pm

Quoted from "Captain Qwark"
In the 12m to 15m range I do not find that the mp18 performs noticeably consequentially better. By consequential I mean losing kills/dying. At 15 meters it's ttk is worse than 10(?) weapons and better than 6. At 20 meters it's ttk it is worse than 8 weapons and better than 8 by my count. That is mediocre as I stated before. This doesn't include spread and recoil, which would have the slrs and some lmgs pull even further ahead. Successful players succeed by engaging enemies on terms that favor them. This is more difficult with the mp18/Ribeyolles than the Automatico and many of the better LMGs/SLRs because their "sweetspot" isn't very sweet. They are actually a bit below the average if anything.
Symthic TTK charts don't account for the effect of spread when calculating. What is shown on the charts is not representative of actual TTK.

The spread and horizontal recoil for the MP18 and Ribeyolles are not significant enough below 22m/28m to cause it to start missing and lose to most LMG's and SLR's. However, LMG's experience a huge jump in spread during their first shots and SLR's gain significant spread if fired at their maximum firerate, making them miss more within the MP18's and Ribeyolles' ideal range. The latter two can maintain acceptable accuracy while moving against the former categories of weapons (which cannot) within 28m. Even the BAR and Madsen don't do spectacularly well against them, despite their high raw damage rates and Trench variants.

The Automatico loses much of its DPS beyond 12m because of spread and horizontal recoil. The Hellriegel starts losing to the MP18 and Ribeyolles the moment it reaches 5m for the same reason. Again, pick a competence zone: 0-12m, or 12m-22/28m?
Mp18 optical has .495 spread before the killing shot. Cei-Rigotti optical has .408 spread before the killing shot. It is true that the mp18 optical variant is better than the worst spread slrs, but it is unfair to compare the best(usable) from one to the worst from another. Mp18 variants are mediocre in spread compared to SLRs in general. I would compare them to LMGs but I don't have time. Perhaps with those included the mp18s may be above the average, but that would certainly not make them versatile enough to be worth using over the Automatico. They also remain far less versatile than lmgs and SLRs as a whole. As tankmayvin said, the mp18 gives up the most valuable niche in the game for a small and much less valuable one.
Right but if I miss a shot with a SLR that has 299 rpm that's going to hurt my ttk vs the guy with a 550 rpm smg. Their is a ease of use factor to the MP18 and a margin for error you may not have with a SLR. Not to mention the MP18 variants are far more friendlier toward on the move playstyles. It's matter of playstyle from my perspective. I don't dispute the Automatico will smash MP18 users in their given range, but you seem to be underestimating what the MP18's niche of offering ease of use SLResque performance for smg users that prefer a more mobile style of play.

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66

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 11:14pm

In the 12m to 15m range I do not find that the mp18 performs noticeably consequentially better. By consequential I mean losing kills/dying. At 15 meters it's ttk is worse than 10(?) weapons and better than 6. At 20 meters it's ttk it is worse than 8 weapons and better than 8 by my count. That is mediocre as I stated before. This doesn't include spread and recoil, which would have the slrs and some lmgs pull even further ahead. Successful players succeed by engaging enemies on terms that favor them. This is more difficult with the mp18/Ribeyolles than the Automatico and many of the better LMGs/SLRs because their "sweetspot" isn't very sweet. They are actually a bit below the average if anything.
Symthic TTK charts don't account for the effect of spread when calculating. What is shown on the charts is not representative of actual TTK.

The spread and horizontal recoil for the MP18 and Ribeyolles are not significant enough below 22m/28m to cause it to start missing and lose to most LMG's and SLR's. However, LMG's experience a huge jump in spread during their first shots and SLR's gain significant spread if fired at their maximum firerate, making them miss more within the MP18's and Ribeyolles' ideal range. The latter two can maintain acceptable accuracy while moving against the former categories of weapons (which cannot) within 28m. Even the BAR and Madsen don't do spectacularly well against them, despite their high raw damage rates and Trench variants.

The Automatico loses much of its DPS beyond 12m because of spread and horizontal recoil. The Hellriegel starts losing to the MP18 and Ribeyolles the moment it reaches 5m for the same reason. Again, pick a competence zone: 0-12m, or 12m-22/28m?
Ill posed problem/solution.

Fact: close range dominates BF1 lethal engagements from the best data we have.

Fact: MP18 sucks at the most common lethal engagement range in the game.

Fact: Automatico still works out to 20 m range, it's just not bestgun.

So with Mp18 you are guaranteed to lose at the range that matters the most in exchange for being better at a range that isn't relevant. 22-28 is a deadly range for auto 8 too, so it's not like MP18 is even dominant in that range bracket in the meta sense.


I still don't really get how this average kill distance data effects me or any other player that fights mostly at mid range. Just because a lot of players choose to fight at close range a lot, that doesn't have any bearing on my engagements does it? I'm not meaning to sound confrontational, I just honestly don't get the relevance of the numbers to actual gameplay.
Because speaking in terms of generalities is what is actually relevant when objectively evaluating choices?

Also because you can't actually enforce a medium engagement range if you want to actually enter a flag radius?

  • "OldBFAddict" started this thread

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Monday, April 10th 2017, 6:18pm

Thanks for the informative reply, Beef.

I was still pretty hot when I posted and shouldn't have.

Now my new pet peeve are all the scouts on my team (of which there's usually way too many) who stand around the spawn area not using their flares.

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Monday, April 10th 2017, 7:24pm

The MP18 most defiantly does not suck at all, I have beaten several Automatico users with my MP18 Trench.

Maybe you don't know how to correctly uses it? So that spraying a 900 RPM Smg is the only way to get fast kills?

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Monday, April 10th 2017, 10:12pm

The MP18 most defiantly does not suck at all, I have beaten several Automatico users with my MP18 Trench.

Maybe you don't know how to correctly uses it? So that spraying a 900 RPM Smg is the only way to get fast kills?
LOL ok. 1v1s can often devolve into smurfs with automaticos getting wiped by all sorts of suboptimal setups at close range. It's an irrelevant statement.

Fact is that there is no magic to using the SMGs. At the range interval where the auto dominates you aim and hold down the trigger until the target dies because they will die before spread causes you to miss.

The MP18 is better at the short end of the mid-range where the automatico is likely to miss enough that it cannot compensate with it's ROF. But capability at that range is simply statistically less relevant.

Using the MP18 means you are a trading a big advantage at the most relevant range for a modest advantage at less relevant ranges. That's a bad trade.

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Tuesday, April 11th 2017, 5:50am

The MP18 most defiantly does not suck at all, I have beaten several Automatico users with my MP18 Trench.

Maybe you don't know how to correctly uses it? So that spraying a 900 RPM Smg is the only way to get fast kills?
I don't think people are necessary saying it or the Ribeyrolles sucks(hell I love both of them) it's just like tankmayvin I believe is trying to point out. At the ranges the MP18 is strong are the least relevant in the game. Meanwhile the Automatico and shotguns are strong in the most relevant ranges. I still prefer the MP18 over the Automatico, but that is because I would rather use a shotty at the ranges I'm using the Automatico.

I do think some of this Automatico vs Mp18 vs Ribeyrolles talk is a waste to some degree. Bottom line most deaths in this game happen at 30 meters or less. Automatico is going to do very well at those ranges. The MP18 or Ribeyrolles certainly can perform, but that isn't the nich they are intended for. I would argue the debate should be about the Automatico vs shotties or even the AL8 since those are the only weapons that over low TTKs that even compete with the Automatico. The longer range smgs should be compared against the SLRs.