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21

Thursday, March 23rd 2017, 10:13pm

Do you guys think shotguns are the best assault guns on all maps or just the closer range maps?

EDIT: assuming proper smoke/cover usage


Well I treat the shotguns the same as the 5 round SLR, I stay in areas or move into areas that prefer close quarter weapons.
I use the Model 10 Slug and the MP18 Trench.

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: Apr 26th 2013

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22

Thursday, March 23rd 2017, 10:24pm

Sjogren's dispersion looks to be 1.6 min and max. Let me know if this is correct.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
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    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
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    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
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    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
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    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
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    AttractYawStrength 1.0
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    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

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23

Friday, March 24th 2017, 8:59am

How do you account for that? How do you calculate X amount of pellets which are going to hit at Y distance?

Shotgun spread is distributed evenly over the radius (unlike other weapon types, which are randomised over area). This means that you need to calculate what percentage of pellets land within the specified radius of the target.

Damage of a shotgun at a specific range:


(RadiusOfTarget / (DistanceToTarget * TAN(DegreesOfSpread)) * NumberOfPellets * DamagePerPellet


At least, I think this would be how you calculate it. This is quite a simplified model; in reality, finding the "RadiusOfTarget" is not easy, as the hitboxes are not circles, but rather capsules layered on top of each other.


@marbleduck

Would this be right?
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (Mar 24th 2017, 9:18am)


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: Jan 12th 2014

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24

Friday, March 24th 2017, 9:30am

How do you account for that? How do you calculate X amount of pellets which are going to hit at Y distance?

Shotgun spread is distributed evenly over the radius (unlike other weapon types, which are randomised over area). This means that you need to calculate what percentage of pellets land within the specified radius of the target.

Damage of a shotgun at a specific range:


(RadiusOfTarget / (DistanceToTarget * TAN(DegreesOfSpread)) * NumberOfPellets * DamagePerPellet


At least, I think this would be how you calculate it. This is quite a simplified model; in reality, finding the "RadiusOfTarget" is not easy, as the hitboxes are not circles, but rather capsules layered on top of each other.


@marbleduck

Would this be right?
Th nice thing is it doesn't need to be super precise, it just needs to be in the right ballpark (within meters) and consistent between weapons. This is because you don't have a damn laser rangefinder if your head and thus can't tell how far the enemy is anyway, unless the target has his ass parked on a flagpole.

You just need to know "do I try to shoot" or "do I try to cover and close". Or if one gun has a major OSHK range advantage over another.

I think your equation is a bit off, you need to figure out the cone of spread at a distance x, assume the pellets are evenly distributed in that area and then figure out how many pellets would be in the area of the capsule itself vs the ones that land outside it. So if your capsule is a 1m^2 circle, but the cone base is 2m^2 you're losing about half your pellets.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Mar 24th 2017, 9:35am)


Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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Posts: 1,518

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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25

Friday, March 24th 2017, 11:03am

I think your equation is a bit off, you need to figure out the cone of spread at a distance x, assume the pellets are evenly distributed in that area and then figure out how many pellets would be in the area of the capsule itself vs the ones that land outside it. So if your capsule is a 1m^2 circle, but the cone base is 2m^2 you're losing about half your pellets.

Well, the problem is that the pellets are not distributed even over the area for shotguns. The pellets are distributed evenly over the radius. Which means you need to use the radius to determine the hitrate, not the area.

If the area of the target was a 1 m^2 circle, then you'd lose 50% of your pellets when the area at the base of your CoF would be 4 m^2. Or at a radius of 2sqrt(1/pi), which is approx 1.13 m.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Miffyli

Symthic Developer

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: Mar 21st 2013

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Location: __main__, Finland

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26

Friday, March 24th 2017, 11:03am

@Zer0Cod3x
@tankmayvin

There are few high quality posts on this topic, both for BF4 and BF1 shotguns. You can find BF1 shotgun posts here:

BF1 shotguns: Analysis of Damage.
BF1 shotguns: Analysis of Damage (2). Moving & Hipfiring
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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Posts: 1,518

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: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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27

Friday, March 24th 2017, 11:08am

@Miffyli

I know there are those posts, but I'm also curious as to whether there is a way of mathematically (not computationally) determining the chance to hit, like there is when spread is distributed evenly over the area.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


Posts: 1,667

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

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28

Friday, March 24th 2017, 7:50pm

I think your equation is a bit off, you need to figure out the cone of spread at a distance x, assume the pellets are evenly distributed in that area and then figure out how many pellets would be in the area of the capsule itself vs the ones that land outside it. So if your capsule is a 1m^2 circle, but the cone base is 2m^2 you're losing about half your pellets.

Well, the problem is that the pellets are not distributed even over the area for shotguns. The pellets are distributed evenly over the radius. Which means you need to use the radius to determine the hitrate, not the area.

If the area of the target was a 1 m^2 circle, then you'd lose 50% of your pellets when the area at the base of your CoF would be 4 m^2. Or at a radius of 2sqrt(1/pi), which is approx 1.13 m.
What do you mean by "distributed over the radius"?

If the distribution is either even or centered you can always go back to some formulation of pellets per unit area of the spread cone at range x.

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: Mar 4th 2017

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29

Friday, March 24th 2017, 11:30pm

Does anyone actually sit & calculate this stuff before firing? I don't play assault that much, but when I do, it's the model 10, though I could probably switch to the 97 and not see a ddifference. If they look in shotgun range, I shoot. Works well for me, if I get them centered or close, it's OHK.

Think I'll start playing assault more and unlock the hellriegl (think I'm a 7 right now.)

But the LMGs just keep calling me:-)

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: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

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30

Friday, March 24th 2017, 11:48pm

Before firing? No no no no, not at all. Before playing? Absolutely. I find that I perform better if I understand the mechanics and how they impact the game so I'm not left to guess or use subjectivity. Symthic is dedicated to providing the technical aspect of Battlefield, among other games, so players understand why the game works the way it does and can apply that knowledge to enhance their own gameplay.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
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    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
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    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
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    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
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    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
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    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
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    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

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        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

Source code

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Mar 25th 2017, 1:10am)