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## Fighter Planes + Ranken Darts: A Balancing Disaster?

Posts: 226

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:54am

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

The Trench Fighter epitomises this frustration. They can easily OHK you,

Another reason I'm pushing hard for cannon buffs (perhaps to compliment nerfing secondaries). Like you say, everyone wants that feeling of 'outplaying' or being 'outplayed', when they win or lose a gunfight.

### Quoted

they're agile and thus hard to predict,

Spotting+minimap range (that 'n' key map zoom thing, not the 'm' key one) keeps you fully aware.

### Quoted

and they have a small frame, which in addition to their speed, makes it hard to return fire against.

Not to mention suppression. If a plane is doing an attack run on you, suppression makes sure you can't return fire with the accuracy required to kill the pilot/gunner. Sucks to know that as soon as they start shooting, the best you can hope for is 30 vehicle damage.

### Quoted from "Shalan"

I almost feel apologetic every time I get a kill in one, because it is just so easy.

I would feel a little bad if it were easy because of the game, but really, it's easy because of the players who don't shoot back. I can't feel sympathetic towards them losing a fight they never tried to win.

Posts: 436

Date of registration
: Mar 25th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 7

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:55am

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

crappy BF4 stealth jet meta
What was wrong with that? Besides the size of the planes being too unbalanced.

BF4 Stealth Jet meta: SJ kills other SJ, then kills heli(s), then proceeds to wait around for about a minute doing chip damage to vehicles before repeating the same process. It's repetitive, uninteresting, and boring.

---

With regard to planes in general: the biggest problem with planes at the moment is not that they're unbalanced - a squad of infantry can quite easily shut down a plane - but it's that they're incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against as infantry. You don't get killed by one and think, "wow, he outplayed me," you think "wow, I just got killed by something that I could not have predicted in any way."

The Trench Fighter epitomises this frustration. They can easily OHK you, they're agile and thus hard to predict, and they have a small frame, which in addition to their speed, makes it hard to return fire against.

Until DICE can actually make infantry vs plane combat fun and engaging, I'd honestly support simply removing planes entirely from the game.
But if you used the 30mm and LGM's, you could take out a down a tank or IFV in 2 runs if you had the right angle of approach in mind, depending which flank of the vehicle you hit the 30mm. But that made you inferior in dogfights, SJ meta was a dilemma for the pilot (as with many vehicle loadouts for other vehicles), but dont say it did chip damage against ground. The different loadouts offered good choice to deal damage against ground.

### Quoted

- a squad of infantry can quite
easily shut down a plane -
There is another thing that is frustrating for the average infantry person: players not coordinating or teamplaying to make that happen. In my 190 hours of BF1 (and I play exclusively conquest) it simply never happens. This game is suffering greatly from the lack of any contextual based communication tools.

I've seen it happen for a small part though, but never more than 2 players. That get frustrated as a consequence if they get killed by the plane because of their tracers and that the plane shruggs of their damage in no time. The fast repair cycles in this game are a big mocking grin to any effort done in the anti-vehicle department.
RIP Sraw

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,647

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:21am

Yeah that is a key issue when balancing assets. How many dedicated players does the game need to take care of an asset. Usually it does work. When a player racks up a certain amount of kills and causes a lot of frustration to the enemy, they will usually band together and destroy it. Works decent enough with ground vehicles, but with planes it is always harder. There are just more things to consider than in the ground game.

Yes a squad can easily take down a fighter with their guns. But they need to be dedicated to it, and you therefore take them out of the ground game as well. When you point at the sky half the time, you can not effectively play. Secondly we have particular assets that are counters to panes. Namely the MAA truck, which you will just not see, because it is basically a wasted vehicle slot, that could be used in better ways, so this is out of the question. Then we have the HMGs on the jeeps, they work really well, but are not reliably spawn or usable. This takes you out of the game as well, but it creates enough of a hassle for any pilot.
The SAA, obviously then is the only real counter, and it still works decently in the designated role, but has some flaws, as it has limited range, can be destroyed and might also not be available to your team.

So, while it all works on paper, as with a lot of things in BF1, the reality of the game just does not represent this. You will not see MAAs, and rarely HMG uses, and the use of SAAs greatly depends on map design and match balance. While on Empire's Edge you get a lot of them at good locations that are also contested, both teams can regularly make use of them. On Fao, it mostly depends on the Fortress guns, which is a one-sided map anyway, and on Sinai, you might be left in the dark if the enemy holds C and D.
And yeah, if a match is lopsided alreadly, the distribution of the guns favours the winning team more, because they can easily control more MAAs that are also in the centre.

Personally I did like the Stealth fighter meta in BF4, where they were used for AA purposes, had no contact with infantry, and chipped away at vehicles creating a hassle for them. This is how it should work, especially after the mayhem of BF3, where pilots were capable of ruining the game for 63 other players.

It is a fact though, that air assets are often on top in the franchise, because their mobility is just something you can really measure in balance by numbers.

Posts: 226

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:44am

I don't agree that infantry need to be dedicated full-time to anti-air. It takes a single infy a single second to inflict 20 damage to a fighter. It takes but a couple hundred milliseconds to do 10HP. And there are 32 of them.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 12:34pm

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

With regard to planes in general: the biggest problem with planes at the moment is not that they're unbalanced - a squad of infantry can quite easily shut down a plane - but it's that they're incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against as infantry. You don't get killed by one and think, "wow, he outplayed me," you think "wow, I just got killed by something that I could not have predicted in any way."

This really is the root of the issue. Planes are flat-out obnoxious for infantry, period, and unless you're scanning the skies every 30s there really isn't a surefire way to anticipate where they are at any given time. Audio cues are generally helpful, but often times if you hear a plane it's too late; you've already been marked for death. There's 2D-minimap spotting, but that entails you have your map's range set far enough to see incoming planes before you're targeted provided they are spotted.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Have all enemy planes become 2D spotted within a certain radius of the player, i.e. at 0m - 100m a player's map auto 2D spots planes - at 100m+ the 2D auto spot is disabled. This gives the player time to react if they're paying attention to their map.

2. Install an audio cue that your player emits when enemy planes enter a certain radius of the player.

3. Install a UI element that alerts the player to incoming enemy planes that enter within a certain radius of the player.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

### Source code

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AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
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YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
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y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.75
AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 1.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.34
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

### Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
x 2.0
y 2.0
YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
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y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.0
AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 0.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.0
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

### Source code

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
AccelerationDamping 4.0
AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
SquaredAcceleration 0.0
MaxAcceleration::Vec2
x 2.0
y 2.0
YawSpeedStrength 1.0
PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
x 1.0
y 1.2
AttractSoftZone 0.75
AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
AttractYawStrength 1.0
AttractPitchStrength 0.34
MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
SnapZoomTime 0.2
SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

### My "Contributions"

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Apr 13th 2017, 3:14pm)

Posts: 258

Date of registration
: Jun 5th 2015

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Hoth

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 7

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 4:09pm

On the topic of having planes telegraph their attacks more clearly, maybe the sound of the plane could reach farther in a cone in front of the plane. Then you'd be more likely to hear it when it's relevant, and the pilot retains some control of it.

Things I support

ammo regen pls

_____

### Quoted from "Skanic"

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.

### Quoted from "TheSkillCommittee"

Remove 3D spotting. It’s a mechanic that rewards bad eyesight.

### Quoted from "Rezal"

Wanna help your team by sneaking through enemy territory to provide spawns? THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK FGT I HOPE YOU RUN OUT OF MOTION BALLS TOO EARLY TO BE SUCCESSFUL
Wanna be Javelin squad but only have two guys? BETTER NOT GET YOUR SOFLAM KILLED FGT THIS IS NOT TEAMWORK WITHOUT A SUPPORT DUDE DROPPING AMMO ON YOU EVERY 2 MINUTES

### Quoted from "Hau_ruck"

Please post your best M1916 clips Magazines *fixed*.

### DICE pls

Squadmate Healthbars in the HUD
Minor console QoL improvements
Ping Tool idea
"Wants to talk" tag for squad menu
Spotting suggestions

Posts I should finish sometime:
Squad priority vehicle system
Scoring system flaws (and concept)
Various minor ideas
Battlefield definition
New helicopter
Suppression rework
Flow, immersion and fun in battlefield
Specializations, ideas and system rework
Gadget reworks and ideas
Why limited infinite ammo would be awesome
Other bitesize ideas

### Cool/Useful Links (never updated)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "potetr" (Apr 13th 2017, 6:40pm)