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81

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:54am

The Trench Fighter epitomises this frustration. They can easily OHK you,


Another reason I'm pushing hard for cannon buffs (perhaps to compliment nerfing secondaries). Like you say, everyone wants that feeling of 'outplaying' or being 'outplayed', when they win or lose a gunfight.

Quoted

they're agile and thus hard to predict,


Spotting+minimap range (that 'n' key map zoom thing, not the 'm' key one) keeps you fully aware.

Quoted

and they have a small frame, which in addition to their speed, makes it hard to return fire against.


Not to mention suppression. If a plane is doing an attack run on you, suppression makes sure you can't return fire with the accuracy required to kill the pilot/gunner. Sucks to know that as soon as they start shooting, the best you can hope for is 30 vehicle damage.

I almost feel apologetic every time I get a kill in one, because it is just so easy.


I would feel a little bad if it were easy because of the game, but really, it's easy because of the players who don't shoot back. I can't feel sympathetic towards them losing a fight they never tried to win.

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82

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:55am

crappy BF4 stealth jet meta
What was wrong with that? Besides the size of the planes being too unbalanced.

BF4 Stealth Jet meta: SJ kills other SJ, then kills heli(s), then proceeds to wait around for about a minute doing chip damage to vehicles before repeating the same process. It's repetitive, uninteresting, and boring.

---

With regard to planes in general: the biggest problem with planes at the moment is not that they're unbalanced - a squad of infantry can quite easily shut down a plane - but it's that they're incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against as infantry. You don't get killed by one and think, "wow, he outplayed me," you think "wow, I just got killed by something that I could not have predicted in any way."

The Trench Fighter epitomises this frustration. They can easily OHK you, they're agile and thus hard to predict, and they have a small frame, which in addition to their speed, makes it hard to return fire against.

Until DICE can actually make infantry vs plane combat fun and engaging, I'd honestly support simply removing planes entirely from the game.
But if you used the 30mm and LGM's, you could take out a down a tank or IFV in 2 runs if you had the right angle of approach in mind, depending which flank of the vehicle you hit the 30mm. But that made you inferior in dogfights, SJ meta was a dilemma for the pilot (as with many vehicle loadouts for other vehicles), but dont say it did chip damage against ground. The different loadouts offered good choice to deal damage against ground.

Quoted


- a squad of infantry can quite
easily shut down a plane -
There is another thing that is frustrating for the average infantry person: players not coordinating or teamplaying to make that happen. In my 190 hours of BF1 (and I play exclusively conquest) it simply never happens. This game is suffering greatly from the lack of any contextual based communication tools.

I've seen it happen for a small part though, but never more than 2 players. That get frustrated as a consequence if they get killed by the plane because of their tracers and that the plane shruggs of their damage in no time. The fast repair cycles in this game are a big mocking grin to any effort done in the anti-vehicle department.
RIP Sraw

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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83

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:21am

Yeah that is a key issue when balancing assets. How many dedicated players does the game need to take care of an asset. Usually it does work. When a player racks up a certain amount of kills and causes a lot of frustration to the enemy, they will usually band together and destroy it. Works decent enough with ground vehicles, but with planes it is always harder. There are just more things to consider than in the ground game.

Yes a squad can easily take down a fighter with their guns. But they need to be dedicated to it, and you therefore take them out of the ground game as well. When you point at the sky half the time, you can not effectively play. Secondly we have particular assets that are counters to panes. Namely the MAA truck, which you will just not see, because it is basically a wasted vehicle slot, that could be used in better ways, so this is out of the question. Then we have the HMGs on the jeeps, they work really well, but are not reliably spawn or usable. This takes you out of the game as well, but it creates enough of a hassle for any pilot.
The SAA, obviously then is the only real counter, and it still works decently in the designated role, but has some flaws, as it has limited range, can be destroyed and might also not be available to your team.

So, while it all works on paper, as with a lot of things in BF1, the reality of the game just does not represent this. You will not see MAAs, and rarely HMG uses, and the use of SAAs greatly depends on map design and match balance. While on Empire's Edge you get a lot of them at good locations that are also contested, both teams can regularly make use of them. On Fao, it mostly depends on the Fortress guns, which is a one-sided map anyway, and on Sinai, you might be left in the dark if the enemy holds C and D.
And yeah, if a match is lopsided alreadly, the distribution of the guns favours the winning team more, because they can easily control more MAAs that are also in the centre.

Personally I did like the Stealth fighter meta in BF4, where they were used for AA purposes, had no contact with infantry, and chipped away at vehicles creating a hassle for them. This is how it should work, especially after the mayhem of BF3, where pilots were capable of ruining the game for 63 other players.

It is a fact though, that air assets are often on top in the franchise, because their mobility is just something you can really measure in balance by numbers.

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84

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 11:44am

I don't agree that infantry need to be dedicated full-time to anti-air. It takes a single infy a single second to inflict 20 damage to a fighter. It takes but a couple hundred milliseconds to do 10HP. And there are 32 of them.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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85

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 12:34pm

With regard to planes in general: the biggest problem with planes at the moment is not that they're unbalanced - a squad of infantry can quite easily shut down a plane - but it's that they're incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against as infantry. You don't get killed by one and think, "wow, he outplayed me," you think "wow, I just got killed by something that I could not have predicted in any way."

This really is the root of the issue. Planes are flat-out obnoxious for infantry, period, and unless you're scanning the skies every 30s there really isn't a surefire way to anticipate where they are at any given time. Audio cues are generally helpful, but often times if you hear a plane it's too late; you've already been marked for death. There's 2D-minimap spotting, but that entails you have your map's range set far enough to see incoming planes before you're targeted provided they are spotted.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Have all enemy planes become 2D spotted within a certain radius of the player, i.e. at 0m - 100m a player's map auto 2D spots planes - at 100m+ the 2D auto spot is disabled. This gives the player time to react if they're paying attention to their map.

2. Install an audio cue that your player emits when enemy planes enter a certain radius of the player.

3. Install a UI element that alerts the player to incoming enemy planes that enter within a certain radius of the player.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.
For 'skill cannons,' that is.

Nope, Aim Assist or bust.

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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86

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 12:45pm

@CaptaPraelium
Clearly you don't like flying planes much.
The idea here is not to fix the game for infy and spoil it for pilots. The idea is to make it fun for BOTH.
And clearly you don't care for anything but flying planes


I've been an avid helo pilot in BF4, and I love piloting Bombers in BF1. My idea is to fix the game by achieving an ideal balance for infantry and pilots, where neither feel completely powerless against the other. Vehicles shouldn't be "power fantasies" as one DICE dev put it, but "powertools" that occupy a specific niche to be applied, supported, and countered.

Quoted

Except they aren't, because infy can hurt planes like hell.

Quoted

I don't agree that infantry need to be dedicated full-time to anti-air. It takes a single infy a single second to inflict 20 damage to a fighter. It takes but a couple hundred milliseconds to do 10HP. And there are 32 of them.
This has been discussed to death everywhere, and I'm not going to add anything more except this: pure damage will not, and does not, deter pilots. I honestly don't understand how people continuously bring up hyperbole like the second quote here, which is completely divorced from what actually happens in 64p CQ and OPs servers, and presumes that everyone on a team is within arms reach and capable of shooting the most agile aircraft in-game at any time.

Quoted

And there's the problem with the BF4 stealth meta. You choose attack plane since fighter is useless against most targets. Enemy takes fighter because they need to rock-paper-scissors your attack plane. You take fighter to kill other fighter. Now you are bored.
Then get out and cap a flag? What do you do when your power tool is no longer useful? Ditch it and start applying another strategy to fight and win.

This is the same Catch-22 AA Trucks face **if** they finally deny control of the sky to an enemy team, and there's no more enemy pilots flying. Now the AA Truck is occupying an invaluable vehicle slot and is near worthless, if he wasn't already putting his own team at an armor disadvantage. Smart AA Truckers who want to be useful and contribute to their team would kamikaze near an objective, so his team can spawn in a Chammond/A7V or pretty much anything else.

Should we buff the anti-infantry/anti-armor capabilities of AA Trucks so they don't feel useless? I really hope not, I doubt anyone here wants to revisit BF3/BF4's MAA meta...

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87

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 1:29pm

unless you're scanning the skies every 30s


Nah just look up at the existing spot marker and hit Q to keep it spotted. And track spawn times of course. All normal anti-vehicle gameplay.

there really isn't a surefire way to anticipate where they are at any given time.


There's...yaknow... looking up.

Audio cues are generally helpful, but often times if you hear a plane it's too late; you've already been marked for death.


100%. It would be excellent if you could hear the planes approaching from 500m. Now it's more like 50.... You hear them as they drop the bombs on your head :/

There's 2D-minimap spotting, but that entails you have your map's range set far enough to see incoming planes before you're targeted provided they are spotted.


Fortunately, each player has complete control over minimap range and spotting.

Here are my suggestions:


These sound like ways to relieve infy of the burden of looking upwards occasionally. Do we really want to make a patch to buff players with poor situational awareness due to lack of effort?

I mean, if the plane is actually problematic to infy, as the plane balance discussions everywhere would suggest, then how are those same infy unaware of the plane's location? That just doesn't add up.
Let's take that train of thought to the next station and ask ourselves: players are failing to use existing mechanics to counter enemy players, such as spotting, and infy weapons hurting planes; and are then asking for patches to nerf the planes because they aren't using the existing mechanics to counter them... Are those kind of players likely to use any new mechanic that might be introduced? I'd say they're more likely to complain that they're too busy dealing with infy and tanks, to notice a spot marker or hear a sound cue. I mean, they're doing exactly that right now, so why expect them to change?

I mean seriously, everyone is OK with looking right and left to spot infy and tanks, but looking up to spot or, dare I say it, actually shoot, planes? NO WAY MAN! TOO HARD TAKES TOO LONG TAKES TOO MANY GUYS CAN'T PTFO WHILE YOU DO THAT etc :S I'm just not buying it.

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88

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 2:18pm

Edit: Not sure if I should have edited this into the above post? Ritobasu posted his reply while I was posting mine, so I ended up kinda double-posting. What's the forum etiquette on that?


And clearly you don't care for anything but flying planes



Strange that I'd spend twice as much time running infy and an equal amount driving tanks, as I do flying, if that were true. Perhaps it's not as clear as you think. Just to clear it up: I fly or tank only when I need to because the enemy pilot or tanker is good, or if I'm playing with friends who specifically ask me to fly or drive. I prefer to run infy. And as infy, my only issue with planes is that my teammates are ignoring the things and I'm the only one shooting and spotting it.

Quoted

This has been discussed to death everywhere, and I'm not going to add anything more except this: pure damage will not, and does not, deter pilots.


Yes it does, if there's enough of it. Especially if they're a good enough pilot to realise that every one of those hits they took, could have been damaging a wing or engine part which could fail at the next shot. They'll leave and repair at the very least. Especially if they are taking hits to their soldier. Or they'll avoid it by means of range, cover, etc, thus rendering themselves less effective. Sure, hurting them a little won't make a pilot budge at all. Heck, I pretty much ignore any damage so long as I'm over 70 or 80HP it's close enough. But if I'm down to 30HP and my soldier is hitmarkered and one bullet from death, watch me GTFO. Pure damage works just fine, in sufficient quantities. And there are sufficient quantities of damage to deal. I mean think about it. A plane flies over a squad, Three of them go pew. pew. Two shots each. Maybe one fires his MG for the time it takes the snipers to chamber a round. The plane has dropped half of it's HP in a single second. You seriously think that won't deter a pilot?

Quoted

I honestly don't understand how people continuously bring up hyperbole like the second quote here, which is completely divorced from what actually happens in 64p CQ and OPs servers, and presumes that everyone on a team is within arms reach and capable of shooting the most agile aircraft in-game at any time.


It's not hyperbole it's just math. Even if 1/8th of the team (4 soldiers) put rounds on the plane it would be dead in a few seconds. The mention of 32 players is not an implication that all 32 players will be engaging the aircraft simultaneously, it's an illustration of the high availability of counters for air. Maybe that doesn't happen in servers, but that's not a plane balance problem, that's an infy performance problem. Nerfing planes because infy suck is not how to balance. Besides, you don't hear the same complaints being made of tanks. Well you do, but only by really bad players. So why are planes so different? (seriously tho, why are planes so different?)

Quoted

Then get out and cap a flag? What do you do when your power tool is no longer useful? Ditch it and start applying another strategy to fight and win.


Or make the tool more useful so that it's not a one-trick-pony that should only be used with imminent suicide in your battle plan. I mean.... Obviously you're serious but... Are you serious? LOL

Quoted

Should we buff the anti-infantry/anti-armor capabilities of AA Trucks so they don't feel useless? I really hope not, I doubt anyone here wants to revisit BF3/BF4's MAA meta...


In short: Yes. I was fine with the MAA being able to engage infy and I would encourage a return to that state for the exact reason you mentioned. It's actually kinda decent against infy now (remember it has an MG) but as you've pointed out it's really putting a dent in the team's armour strength. It's basically an obsolete vehicle, especially if one considers tank hunter landship. That's another balance problem for another thread I guess.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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89

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 2:56pm

These sound like ways to relieve infy of the burden of looking upwards occasionally. Do we really want to make a patch to buff players with poor situational awareness due to lack of effort?

When I'm playing as an infantryman is it my job to make sure the exact location of every potential air threat or to even destroy them? No. Friendly aircraft or the AA Truck (pssh, when it's used) should be in charge of that aspect. As an infantryman my priority is ground pounding that means taking out opposing ground targets and focusing on ground-based objectives. Infantry have enough things to worry about on the ground, throw in a plane or two into the mix and now the attention you divert to focus on the air will likely put you in a bad situation on the ground where a vast majority of the threats actually are. Notice the exaggeration on the word 'ground' here. While infantry have tools available to them to deter planes it isn't their job, not by a long shot; there is no dedicated class or tool that infantry spawn in with that directly hard counters planes. There are only vehicles and stationary AAs.

Another thing. It has nothing to do with rewarding poor situational awareness at all, seeing as how I shouldn't have to constantly look up for fear of being insta-gibbed by a stupid plane to begin with, it's about making the gameplay more fluid and less of a chore. I know that I have the capacity to overcome these obstacles like spotting, minding my surroundings, or changing certain settings; I'm not completely moronic and do have a functional brain, but it's not good for gameplay to have to go through an arbitrary checklist.

I liken it, among others, to active spotting. It's a "click tax" as some would put it. Passive spotting should be the only the necessary action to spot, which is tracking your target for a couple seconds to initiate a full spot instead of mashing the spot button constantly until the game finally recognizes you're trying to spot someone. Competent players know how to spot and the importance of spotting, so if they're going to do it anyway why force them to engage in another click/press to initiate the full functionality of it?

I use the same thought process for planes: competent players are going to be wary of their surroundings anyway, so why force them to look about the sky aimlessly while also putting themselves at a disadvantage to potential ground threats? Rather, institute a system that already does that for you, so you don't have to waste time doing it yourself.

There's...yaknow... looking up.

Okay smartass, how about when FoV is blocked by trees or buildings, if inside of a structure, or, better yet, when in the midst of fighting shit on the ground. You know, the whole damn reason for playing as infantry in the first place. -_- 9 out of 10 times I'm killed by planes when in the middle of ground combat. Surely, you don't expect someone in this situation to take the time to frantically search for planes in the vicinity...

Fortunately, each player has complete control over minimap range and spotting.

Unfortunately minimap scaling is horrible on console, so if I set my map range beyond 100m I have to increase the size of the map itself in order to take advantage of the extra range which takes up like an eighth of my screen space. The messed up part about it is that the minimap hides 3D icons behind it regardless of the opacity, so increasing the size is a huge detriment.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.
For 'skill cannons,' that is.

Nope, Aim Assist or bust.

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Apr 13th 2017, 3:14pm)


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90

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 4:09pm

On the topic of having planes telegraph their attacks more clearly, maybe the sound of the plane could reach farther in a cone in front of the plane. Then you'd be more likely to hear it when it's relevant, and the pilot retains some control of it.

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Things I support
ammo regen pls

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

_____

When I play with it [Autoloading 8] I feel like I am batman taking out 1 after 1 baddie while they feel helpless and don't know who is talking out their mates.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "potetr" (Apr 13th 2017, 6:40pm)