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Posts: 747

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: Dec 3rd 2014

Platform: PS4

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21

Monday, March 20th 2017, 9:40am

The trench fighter is definitely what I gravitated towards. At first I was just being a hipster because everyone was saying fighters suck. Then they got buffed and it became ridiculous. The combo of trench darts and spotting flares is both fun and effective. Even if I'm having a bad day with dart accuracy, dropping flares onto any contested flag is still an amazing ability to have. The fact that fighters can easily outmaneuver and shoot down the other aircraft types and therefore stay alive, potentially for the entire game just makes the class much more attractive. Most players I see still seem to gravitate towards the attack bomber, making them easy pickings. The only exception is when the pilot and gunner are working well together.

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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22

Monday, March 20th 2017, 10:40am

You guys are aware that the dogfighter is excellent vs infantry if you use gravity tactics and zoom? It's a higher skill ceiling maybe, and the lack of flares makes it less able to farm without some external spotting but it's otherwise very good at squishy farming, and it shreds other air.

The trenchy is also at a terrific disadvantage vs any of the defensive guns. Competent gunners can usually swat them down in a shooting match.

Of all the air vehicles that can infantry farm with AOE derp-weapons, the trenchy is also arguably the worst. The autocannon attack plane is way better/higher uptime using gravity tactics, but requires a gunner to survive air to air combat. The bomber + nosecannon can farm stupidly well. Orbiting a hotspot = 100% farming uptime better than anything other than the saint chamond. But again that needs 2 people to work. So really the only advantage the trenchie has is solo effectiveness versus relying on that dreaded teamwork thing.

Using a trenchy and NOT deploying a bomber also means you've given up one your teams only hard armor counter slots. Similarly, using an AA truck robs your team of a meaningful tank slot. Good tanks will generally outfarm good trenchies and can also meaningfully cap. With the new Saint Chamond farming and spotting ability of the tank is unambiguously the most potent across all platforms in the entire game.

Air farming is also not all that valuable. While it's frustrating as hell, and capable of defensive flag clearing, and can rack up a good ticket lead, its not persistent like armor is, and thus can't convert farming to caps with the same effectiveness as tanks. And that heavily factors into just how powerful something is. IOW, people need to get over dying.


Yeah you have a point. I said as much, the attack plane and bomber offer the same killcount and more team effectiveness potential, even when piloted alone, than the trench fighter, but people tend to play for kills a lot still, if they win in the process it is an added bonus. It is just not that appealing if you strafe a heavy tank with the bombs for 30 damage even, or to receive at least one guaranteed kill with the darts. You are right however, if the darts are nerfed, people will just then gravitate to the Attack Plane and farm infantry with the bombs there, which is just a little less effective. You are equally vulnerable with the Attack Plane though, because the gunner seat is just very unrewarding and boring in any plane. The AA nerfs surely did not help the matter.
Right now people choose the trench fighter because it is rather forgiving and usable, and you go 30-3 with it. I think this is the major appeal. Still a marginal amount of kills on the whole and it is hard to judge contribution to the round by kills. Personally I would rather have a guy in my team that tries hard and fails hard on the ground than a proficient trench fighter pilot. It is just a playstyle that I consider should not be endorsed as much.

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: Jan 12th 2014

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23

Monday, March 20th 2017, 8:10pm

You guys are aware that the dogfighter is excellent vs infantry if you use gravity tactics and zoom? It's a higher skill ceiling maybe, and the lack of flares makes it less able to farm without some external spotting but it's otherwise very good at squishy farming, and it shreds other air.

The trenchy is also at a terrific disadvantage vs any of the defensive guns. Competent gunners can usually swat them down in a shooting match.

Of all the air vehicles that can infantry farm with AOE derp-weapons, the trenchy is also arguably the worst. The autocannon attack plane is way better/higher uptime using gravity tactics, but requires a gunner to survive air to air combat. The bomber + nosecannon can farm stupidly well. Orbiting a hotspot = 100% farming uptime better than anything other than the saint chamond. But again that needs 2 people to work. So really the only advantage the trenchie has is solo effectiveness versus relying on that dreaded teamwork thing.

Using a trenchy and NOT deploying a bomber also means you've given up one your teams only hard armor counter slots. Similarly, using an AA truck robs your team of a meaningful tank slot. Good tanks will generally outfarm good trenchies and can also meaningfully cap. With the new Saint Chamond farming and spotting ability of the tank is unambiguously the most potent across all platforms in the entire game.

Air farming is also not all that valuable. While it's frustrating as hell, and capable of defensive flag clearing, and can rack up a good ticket lead, its not persistent like armor is, and thus can't convert farming to caps with the same effectiveness as tanks. And that heavily factors into just how powerful something is. IOW, people need to get over dying.


Yeah you have a point. I said as much, the attack plane and bomber offer the same killcount and more team effectiveness potential, even when piloted alone, than the trench fighter, but people tend to play for kills a lot still, if they win in the process it is an added bonus. It is just not that appealing if you strafe a heavy tank with the bombs for 30 damage even, or to receive at least one guaranteed kill with the darts. You are right however, if the darts are nerfed, people will just then gravitate to the Attack Plane and farm infantry with the bombs there, which is just a little less effective. You are equally vulnerable with the Attack Plane though, because the gunner seat is just very unrewarding and boring in any plane. The AA nerfs surely did not help the matter.
Right now people choose the trench fighter because it is rather forgiving and usable, and you go 30-3 with it. I think this is the major appeal. Still a marginal amount of kills on the whole and it is hard to judge contribution to the round by kills. Personally I would rather have a guy in my team that tries hard and fails hard on the ground than a proficient trench fighter pilot. It is just a playstyle that I consider should not be endorsed as much.
The overall player satisfaction in the gunner seat is the biggest thing holding back the other two planes. It's not only boring, but it's a low scoring game role. Defensive kills ARE fun though, but are practically speaking too rare to make it all that thrilling on average.

The thing is. What is wrong with a vehicle that can reliably go 30+ with few deaths? That's basically the defining capability of any good vehicle in battlefield and has been such since 1942: the ability to reliably farm infantry at 1 KPM or greater. Otherwise it's just another kind of target.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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: Apr 26th 2013

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24

Monday, March 20th 2017, 10:32pm

The reason I get irritated when I see a vehicle user dominating is because it's generally a reflection of apathy on my teammates. If they cared enough, 3 or 4 guys could mess up a tank or a plane no problem. That's literally all it takes; maybe 5 at the most, but that's a small fraction of a 30+ member team. But noooooo, whenever this occurs the vehicle is essentially ignored and left to murder without consequence.

Also, it's not like constant BS deaths from vehicles can just be brushed off either. Concerning the trench fighter, you are NOT safe unless there's a roof or physical obstruction above you; hell, I've been trench darted while I intentionally positioned myself directly under the second-level overhang on Ballroom Blitz before. Therefore, not even cover can protect you from these things unless you camp indoors where there's no possible chance for it to see or get to you. At least with tanks, you have a lot more room to maneuver because they're slow and stuck on the ground where even changes in terrain elevation can be utilized to break line of sight.

Getting killed by attack planes and bombers CAN be pretty easily avoided because you can hear or see them before they begin a strafe. Yeah, good friggen' luck when there's a trench fighter inbound. By the time you hear it you're dead; no time to react and no way to prevent your death. And I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find the death cam or spawn screen all that appealing. Thankfully revives are a plenty in BF1, in my experience, so probably 70% of the time I do get revived which lessens the frustration.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

(1,809)

Posts: 2,495

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

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25

Monday, March 20th 2017, 10:43pm

This kind of brings us also to the reason why indirect fire gadget, explosives, grenades and such are viewed as overpowered and/or overused in this game. Basically you are always walking under the sun, and even if you are in a house it is likely destroyable. That of course multiplies the effect of such vehicles and gadgets. Nobody would complain about trench fighters if the maps looked more like Suez or Amiens.

Best example is likely Soissons on Frontlines, the only cover from above are houses which can mostly be levelled to the ground. In between flags and even on some flags there is nothing that breaks LOS from above. Naturally mortars are not situational like in BF4 or on Amiens, Verdun and Vaux, but are usable with awesome effectiveness all the time.

Same with the trenchfighter on every map where it is available. Nothing really blocks the LOS.

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: Jan 12th 2014

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26

Monday, March 20th 2017, 10:52pm

The reason I get irritated when I see a vehicle user dominating is because it's generally a reflection of apathy on my teammates. If they cared enough, 3 or 4 guys could mess up a tank or a plane no problem. That's literally all it takes; maybe 5 at the most, but that's a small fraction of a 30+ member team. But noooooo, whenever this occurs the vehicle is essentially ignored and left to murder without consequence.

Also, it's not like constant BS deaths from vehicles can just be brushed off either. Concerning the trench fighter, you are NOT safe unless there's a roof or physical obstruction above you; hell, I've been trench darted while I intentionally positioned myself directly under the second-level overhang on Ballroom Blitz before. Therefore, not even cover can protect you from these things unless you camp indoors where there's no possible chance for it to see or get to you. At least with tanks, you have a lot more room to maneuver because they're slow and stuck on the ground where even changes in terrain elevation can be utilized to break line of sight.

Getting killed by attack planes and bombers CAN be pretty easily avoided because you can hear or see them before they begin a strafe. Yeah, good friggen' luck when there's a trench fighter inbound. By the time you hear it you're dead; no time to react and no way to prevent your death. And I don't know about anyone else, but I don't find the death cam or spawn screen all that appealing. Thankfully revives are a plenty in BF1, in my experience, so probably 70% of the time I do get revived which lessens the frustration.
You can't hear good attack planes or bombers. The first sign of attack from a good autocannon pass is the shells exploding on you. The people who are doing these long, shallow strafing runs are making themselves easy targets. The really shit hot pilots come in from like 45 degrees and dump their autocannon and then their cluster bomb stick on the pullout and then zoom back up to altitude to line up their next pass.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

Posts: 3,162

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 14

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27

Monday, March 20th 2017, 11:31pm

Okay sure, but when does anyone ever run into a pro bomber team or attack plane ace on the regular? I surely don't. It's always just nub scrub trench fighters that don't even have to be good to get kills. They can simply bob and weave, dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge all they want because "lol, suck on my insanely good mobility and speed."

Not to mention that draw distance and resolution are far inferior on console compared to PC, so most pilots or gunners can't even really see what they're shooting at unless there's a bright red indicator hovering over their targets. I would have to be about a foot or two from my TV to see ground targets without them being spotted. I have enough trouble as is finding armored targets with the tank hunter attack plane from 8ft. away on a 37in. screen (livin' the high life right there XD), just imagine how difficult it is to see infantry from that distance (that's beside the point though, if I wanted to I could move in closer when flying but I don't like the 'fighter or bust' meta right now).
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

Source code

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 1,669

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

28

Monday, March 20th 2017, 11:44pm

Okay sure, but when does anyone ever run into a pro bomber team or attack plane ace on the regular? I surely don't. It's always just nub scrub trench fighters that don't even have to be good to get kills. They can simply bob and weave, dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge all they want because "lol, suck on my insanely good mobility and speed."

Not to mention that draw distance and resolution are far inferior on console compared to PC, so most pilots or gunners can't even really see what they're shooting at unless there's a bright red indicator hovering over their targets. I would have to be about a foot or two from my TV to see ground targets without them being spotted. I have enough trouble as is finding armored targets with the tank hunter attack plane from 8ft. away on a 37in. screen (livin' the high life right there XD), just imagine how difficult it is to see infantry from that distance (that's beside the point though, if I wanted to I could move in closer when flying but I don't like the 'fighter or bust' meta right now).
IME "scrubs" aren't going 30-3 in trench fighters.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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29

Monday, March 20th 2017, 11:46pm

I'm a pretty scrubby pilot myself. Getting 10 kills per life in a trench fighter would be pretty easy to accomplish, I think. Still can't be bothered to fly anymore though.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,320)

Posts: 3,096

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

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30

Tuesday, March 21st 2017, 12:35am

Not to mention that draw distance and resolution are far inferior on console compared to PC, so most pilots or gunners can't even really see what they're shooting at unless there's a bright red indicator hovering over their targets.
It's that way on PC too. For some reason DICE decided to add a ton of blur so you can't see far without optics in planes. I think it's some bizarre attempt at balance, but why not just balance through weapon stats instead of forced blur?

It's especially bad on Fao.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.