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NoctyrneSAGA

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231

Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:52am

I thought a senseless appeal to authority goes against the very spirit of Symthic's discourse on gameplay balancing, but here we have an actual Battlefield Grandmaster who claims to know better than us casuals on what works for the game.


There is a difference between an Appeal to Authority where we listen to someone simply because of who they are and listening to someone who knows what they are talking about and can articulate their arguments because of it. People who know what they are talking about typically have invested a lot of time into the game and know how to play it well. Of course, this does not mean they are infallible. They still need to back up their arguments with proof instead of "I said so."

Nowhere do I claim to be a Grandmaster either.

The reason I wrote sentence is because people who have no idea what they are talking about should not be taken seriously. We call this the Dunning-Kruger Effect. People who lack the proper knowledge of a subject also lack the ability to accurately judge their proficiency in said subject. Someone who is well-versed in a subject like a Chess Grandmaster is going to be able to completely wreck someone who has no idea what they are doing both in the game and when discussing how it's played.

Of course, I can always try a different analogy. Let us say you have developed an infection in your foot. Would you rather listen to an actual doctor's medical advice or some random advice I found through 5 minutes of googling? I would hope you would listen to the person who knows what they are talking about.

Conquest was completely fine before, so why was the change from the bleed style ticket system to what we have now even necessary in the first place? Again, another example of a completely unneeded and unwarranted change from the "Grandmasters" who apparently know best.


The problem with Conquest has been discussed before. Search for it if you want to find out why.

The TL;DR is that the old system was not an accurate display of the gamestate.

You yourself state that people with a major flag deficit had to pump out a ridiculous amount of kills per minute in BF4 to catch up. In a system where people gain points for just having their own team's flags existing, it completely depreciates the value of holding and defending the majority of flags and discourages back capping. It goes beyond just simple killing, although that is a considerable factor right now as is.


I'm fairly certain a one flag difference led to 15.0 KPM difference. That isn't a big flag deficit.

The main point is that kills influence the score a lot. Enough to invalidate flag possession in some cases.



@tankmayvin

It is almost as if I base my point of view on what can be proven and demonstrated.

Though I'd appreciate if you can go dig up the post where I said that. I have no recollection of it.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "NoctyrneSAGA" (Apr 21st 2017, 1:57am)


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Friday, April 21st 2017, 2:29am


@tankmayvin

It is almost as if I base my point of view on what can be proven and demonstrated.

Though I'd appreciate if you can go dig up the post where I said that. I have no recollection of it.
Can't find it, sadly. Or rather don't feel like putting in the effort to pour through my post.

Either way, I'm glad that the conq ticket system, which was widely lauded here as being superior to prior titles, is now being recognized as a serious problem because it leads to lame duck situations where rounds simply cannot be turned around via a surge of map control or clever back camping. Teams that have a slight flag advantage are typically outkilling too, and are unlikely to stop out-killing.

Killing should be important to direct scoring (otherwise things like trenchie should be flat removed since it doesn't have the OHK rate to clear out flags compared to other air and thus gets depricated in utility). But flag control should also be very relevant. I don't see how you can balance bleed rates so that both conditions are satisfied.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 2:32am

Well, it's the Beta version that is lauded.

Not the post-Beta one. People like to pretend the Beta one doesn't exist apparently.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 3:38am

I need an update here. Isn't Ammo 2.0 scheduled to be implemented in some way in the April Spring patch?

Also on the topic of Conquest scoring system, it is less of a foot infection problem, but more of a subjective opinion/preference. I am not going to repeat my arguments of why I do not like the current system, but if DICE is going down the "implement what we like" path and ignoring the community on this type of issues, it does not do anything but drive the community away.

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235

Friday, April 21st 2017, 6:28am

I need an update here. Isn't Ammo 2.0 scheduled to be implemented in some way in the April Spring patch?

Also on the topic of Conquest scoring system, it is less of a foot infection problem, but more of a subjective opinion/preference. I am not going to repeat my arguments of why I do not like the current system, but if DICE is going down the "implement what we like" path and ignoring the community on this type of issues, it does not do anything but drive the community away.


New timers and such yes, but without the regen.


That's exactly it. This isn't a case of "knowing better", it's a case of claiming personal preferences as objectively superior. It's more like people claiming to be experts at enjoying music.

The classic CQ system and Beta CQ system are purely a matter of preference. This claim of the classic system "not representing the gamestate" is an extremely flimsy excuse to shoehorn in a pet project. You don't completely change/replace a gamemode over what is simply a UI issue, and to claim that as the reason is either worryingly disconnected from the game/community, or simply making excuses.
Who has fun, wins.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 7:01am

it's a case of claiming personal preferences as objectively superior. It's more like people claiming to be experts at enjoying music.


Bad comparison.

CQ and Ammo 2.0 are systems. Evaluating how well the systems work and what they do is entirely possible. We can actually judge pros and cons of the systems.

A closer comparison for music is whether the chord progression, embellishments, and other music theory you have works for the style you are going for.

Though music in this context simply doesn't work for a comparison and really is just being used here for "It's an opinion! It's subjective! It's preference!"



Also, if you're trying to describe what's so great about your design, it's kind of hard to do it without talking about what it does better than the current iteration.

If you're going to argue for a position, it helps to actually talk about why it is better.

This claim of the classic system "not representing the gamestate" is an extremely flimsy excuse to shoehorn in a pet project.


Flimsy how?

You don't completely change/replace a gamemode over what is simply a UI issue,


It is not simply a UI issue. The score itself is derived from how the rules of the game work. It'd be a UI issue if the two sides were swapped or if the score failed to display.

The representation of gamestate itself was not accurate. We've been over this before.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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237

Friday, April 21st 2017, 10:21am

I need an update here. Isn't Ammo 2.0 scheduled to be implemented in some way in the April Spring patch?

Also on the topic of Conquest scoring system, it is less of a foot infection problem, but more of a subjective opinion/preference. I am not going to repeat my arguments of why I do not like the current system, but if DICE is going down the "implement what we like" path and ignoring the community on this type of issues, it does not do anything but drive the community away.


New timers and such yes, but without the regen.


That's exactly it. This isn't a case of "knowing better", it's a case of claiming personal preferences as objectively superior. It's more like people claiming to be experts at enjoying music.

The classic CQ system and Beta CQ system are purely a matter of preference. This claim of the classic system "not representing the gamestate" is an extremely flimsy excuse to shoehorn in a pet project. You don't completely change/replace a gamemode over what is simply a UI issue, and to claim that as the reason is either worryingly disconnected from the game/community, or simply making excuses.
Okay so auto-regen is removed so after your timer goes down to 0 and you touched a ammo box you get a grenade back right? Is auto-regen removed on gadget as well? or just the grenades?

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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238

Friday, April 21st 2017, 10:27am

The auto regen concept for gadgets was violently bludgeoned, maybe it'll stay for grenades but it's probably all gone. All that potential, wasted. All because the Battlefield Reddit community will fight tooth and nail to keep Battlefield in the dark ages of FPS game mechanics. Seriously, where was the hissy fit when auto regen was implemented for heals? Oh right, it's existed since the time where Internet bitching, moaning, whining, and crying at developers wasn't nearly as prevalent (or present at all) as it is today. -_-
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 10:41am



Trying to make a difference is meaningless if said difference is not actualized.

It becomes wasted effort.


Well, I am sure this is not what you want to teach your kids, right? You might want to rephrase that. Effort is always a valuable asset and should not be dismissed in all aspects of life. Geez I sound like a communist, but it is true.



If players are not willing to put in the effort to learn the game, I do not see why they should be listened to.

Do you think a Chess Grandmaster should take the complaints of someone who has never touched the game before seriously?


Well, you know my great grandfather taught me chess, matter of fact he taught me a lot of games, and you might wonder how he did that. By having fun with it, he let me win sometimes, he taught me some basic strategies and so forth. The important message he sent me that this is a game and we should both have fun with it. Maybe you forget that BF1 is indeed a game like Chess, but it is also a game like basketball or hide and seek. It is only a game nothing less and nothing more. What do you think games were designed for? For the simple purpose of fun and recreation.
Also nobody suddenly comes along to chess players, wipes the board and suddenly declares that the game is better without the dame, but with the implementation of the Mesmer, the new figure that can jump ten squares in a spiral movement. I wonder what the Grandmasters would say to that. Let alone the guys that play Chess with their greatgrandfather to pass time until it is time for cake.

Somewhere along the line the fun was either removed from BF1 or metaphorically forgotten to pick back up after the soccer game.

Anyway, I am happy to see that the new Conquest system is indeed deemed worse than before. I argued heavy against it, but was adamantly for the implementation of kills to the tickets. I liked the old system better, you could turn any round and your own kills still mattered to an extent. The guy that went 51-49 on the flags was as good to have on the team as the guy going 51-14. It does not matter what the scoreboard tells you either, the perceived experience from your own gameplay was the important factor. And the new ticket mechanic still tells you a lie in saying that a round was close even though your team never had a chance, the scoreboard even tells you less than before.
Honestly I had never thought that kills would matter so much in Conquest, the aforementioned guy that barely hits a 1.0 K/D is a real hindrance to your team now instead of an asset. And the worst of it is that the game tells them through it's mechanics that they are a waste, and that is why so many of my friends are so frustrated to the point of quitting. It is disgusting really. That is what I mean with leaving the fun behind. DICE (although I am not so sure about it) but some people definitely open up their heads (and hearts, too) for the rest of the players and see what the game has really become.

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 11:03am

Games are also made to determine winners and losers; those who are better in certain aspects and those who are worse. Competitive games in general (sports, board games, strategy games, video games, recess/ playground games) appeal to those who like to win or to feel the satisfaction of winning. It's an inherent desire in people to want to be better in some way shape or form; I imagine this is why war is so common in human existence. Some choose to suppress this while others choose to pursue it.

Also, the analogy of you and your grandfather playing chess is not a viable comparison. The relationship between family members often removes the need to be better or to win especially considering age gaps. Elder family members almost always let the children win until a certain age where they need to or should learn the difference of winning and losing. It's not fun to lose, and the way not to lose is to better yourself in the area(s) of whatever the competition or situation requires. Things like participation medals and trophies and nonsense like "you're all winners!" (when there are clearly winners and losers in real life) or not keeping score is only setting up kids for failure later in life.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho