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NoctyrneSAGA

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Thursday, April 20th 2017, 11:52pm

only better if you prefer the results that they give.


Assuming such preference or the result is good. Preference has nothing to do with how good something actually is.

I can prefer to piss away money on pachislot machines because I like the result of literally wasting money.

That does not make such a habit any more useful or healthy than it is to invest that money into something worthwhile.

"It's an opinion" or "It's subjective" or "It's just preference" are all excuses. They do not mean anything when you actually compare what the systems bring to the table.

Of course it is about the effort you put in, not about the result. The guy throwing himself into the line of fire is very likely trying to make a difference. The result is what is irrelevant and the effort is the basic element of teamplay. This thing should be encouraged, not trying to be the last guy that throws his grenade to get the points and kills or to not engage because the reward is not worth the effort. You are calling that "being a dumbass".


Trying to make a difference is meaningless if said difference is not actualized.

It becomes wasted effort.

Who cares who poached a kill as long as the target is dead? Bickering over smaller battles like that and losing the whole match is just plain stupid.

ANd he is actively punished for it, either way, if he has two left he will still spawn with less ammo than a fresh one.


Because cooldowns persist through death? Or are you saying that it is okay for people to respawn to bypass the cooldown timers and get full payloads constantly?

Like how people used to do with the UCAV and Mortar?

This is how cooldown systems work, and it's even better than others because it has a minimum charge that isn't set to 0.

Furthermore, the minimum number can always be increased if it isn't enough.

You are only seeing your POV, the well-educated, elite in knowing the extra mechanic but oblivious of the main player base.


If players are not willing to put in the effort to learn the game, I do not see why they should be listened to.

Do you think a Chess Grandmaster should take the complaints of someone who has never touched the game before seriously?

And yes cooldowns does reduce resource management, especially with the magic grenades and especially with people that tend to live longer.


No it doesn't. You cannot have resource management if you have no resources to manage.

If I have zero income, my management strategy devolves into "save save save."

The way the game plays without Ammo 2.0 is pretty much the same way.

Players wind up having to hold on to their resource forever and potentially never spend it.



Furthermore, without a source people who just expend their resource never have to actually think about when they can use said resource again.

It's been used up, I'm not getting it back, I don't have to care about managing it anymore.

Having a consistent source makes management continuously relevant.

"Is now the right time to expend the cooldown. Can I handle the X time where I am no longer able to use that cooldown?"

You are assuming that people throw it whenever the CD is up.


Which people did to try and prove grenade spam got worse (it didn't).

They also didn't accept the argument that had they saved said grenade for just a few seconds longer, they might have actually done something worthwhile with it (marbleduck's video showed this).

The important thing is that they could throw it whenever they wanted to.


Something wrong with having a cooldown when you need it?

Is there a problem with being smart about how you spend your resources so that you have the cooldown back when you need it?

Then there was suddenly no choice involved anymore. That is not resource management, that is irrelevance of a system.


How isn't there a choice?

The choice is "Should I utilize this cooldown right now or should I wait?"

Looks really similar to what we have right now except Ammo 2.0 actually facilitates use of said cooldown instead of having players hold on to it forever.

There is a reason why the Battlefield Friends video on Grenades was linked in the Ammo 2.0 thread on Reddit.



For example, my Guardian is capable of clearing various debuffs in GW2. Should I press my condition clears as soon as a condition pops up?

No, I should make sure that the condition is actually dangerous before I press that button. Clearing 1 stack of Vulnerability only to be hit by 12 stacks of Bleed and an Immobilize right after is stupid.

I put one of my most important tools on cooldown when I shouldn't have. And as a result of that, now I no longer have the tools I need to deal with the enemy.

Conversely, never expending my condition clears is just as stupid. If I know the enemy has finished dumping all their conditions on me, why should I hold off in fear of more incoming conditions?



The same happened with Ammo 2.0. If someone decides to expend their ATRG on infantry because there are no other available targets, they'll suffer for it when a vehicle does roll up.

The punishment for improper use isn't "Ha ha you don't ever get it back ever again."

It's now "You have an X second gap where you are super vulnerable to what that cooldown was meant to take care of. Try to survive until X second elapses."

And you must have noticed it yourself. I certainly threw more grenades than before, in the knowledge that I would have one so soon it would not matter. And all the talk about less grenades being thrown is futile as well, because when you can throw one in every firefight, but the spam in chokepoints decreased the perception is still that you get hit more by grenades and this is then equally true.


Oh so you mean we can actually use our grenades instead of clinging on to them in fear of never seeing one again until respawn?

Devs have already hinted that Suppression halting and slowing resupply made a big difference in chokepoint maps. We'll see if they ever get around to releasing that telemetry.

Why not make flags give resources, with which we can then purchase vehicles and elite classes? After all it is just another successful mechanic from another genre.


Define successful.

What I see here is rewarding teams that win by giving them an easier time to win.

You are again showing a gross misunderstanding of why Ammo 2.0 was so important.

It isn't just about "borrowing" from other games. It's about looking at systems that work and what they would bring to the table if used.



Ammo 2.0 would have made huge improvements to the half-assed resource system present in Battlefield.

Tradition and lack of understanding drove it out.

Even when numbers showed that it was clearly working.
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With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Friday, April 21st 2017, 12:04am

Do you think a Chess Grandmaster should take the complaints of someone who has never touched the game before seriously?


Thank you for summarizing the attitude that killed Ammo 2.0 in a single sentence.
Who has fun, wins.

NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 12:41am

I wish the grandmasters did not take the clueless commentary seriously.

Then again, DICE has a habit of doing that. With some disastrous results.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Friday, April 21st 2017, 12:50am

I wish the grandmasters did not take the clueless commentary seriously.

Then again, DICE has a habit of doing that.
I want a well balanced game that lots of people actually play and that has depths that are accessible to a range of players (see Star-craft, Overwatch). Maybe by, you know, designing something well at release instead of trying to make a new wheel 6 months in.

Ammo 2.0 failed because it doesn't make the game more FUN, or at least it couldn't be demonstrated that it improved the fun. No one is not having fun with BF1 because support resupply isn't consistently relevant. Not even the grandmasters are really in love with BF1, anyway.,

NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 12:56am

Very much so.

But DICE listening to the community's input too much is why Conquest is completely messed up right now and why Ammo 2.0 has been removed.

The former has led to headaches for players and the latter is lost potential.

Ammo 2.0 wasn't even a new wheel. It's been around for Medkits, Ammo Crates, and Defibs in many previous titles.

BF4 vehicles ran on it. This was simply a movement for gadgets to hop aboard too.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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If it flies, it dies™.

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:05am

Very much so.



But DICE listening to the community's input too much is why Conquest is
completely messed up right now and why Ammo 2.0 has been removed.



The former has led to headaches for players and the latter is lost potential.



Ammo 2.0 wasn't even a new wheel. It's been around for Medkits, Ammo Crates, and Defibs in many previous titles.



BF4 vehicles ran on it. This was simply a movement for gadgets to hop aboard too.
Conq is mostly messed up because of shitty map design. AFAIK those maps were not designed by community committee. Playtime from prior titles shows that maps like Metro/Lockers were overwhelmingly popular. I'm just happy we've only really gotten another set of three maps like those. And not 50% of the rotation.

DICE has placed itself in a political situation where they HAVE to listen to the community - they set up this fanservice because of completely botching BF4 on release. They need to hire some actual community/PR people to handle the monster they've built.

Ammo pooling in BF armor is a burst-damage limiter moreso than it is a new way to do ammo supply. As with infantry ammo supply, a fixed ROF from a large pool was only relevant to the shitbuckets who could keep the tank alive along enough to run the supply dry.

The vehicle changes have a very different effect than the infantry ones do: they are a straight nerf to DPS and introduce new meta for tank fights -ie you want to go against a depleted tank with your full load. Tank self-healing and ammo regen were also part of compenstating for the deprication/removal of the commander, who used to be the one generally supplying armor with those things.

Sure the general mechanic is the same, but the gameplay impacts are pretty damn different between armor and infantry.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Apr 21st 2017, 1:12am)


NoctyrneSAGA

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:18am

Conq is mostly messed up because of shitty map design.


Actually no.

The reason why CQ is messed up right now isn't down to maps.

It's because the ticket system allows kills now when the flag scoring was tuned without it.

For example, I have a match on Amiens where 640 tickets were obtained from kills. Flag possession is meaningless.



Bleed used to put a guy with 15.0 KPM on your team.

Now it's around 4.0 KPM.

The influence of kills outweighs flags.

Just yesterday I had an all-cap on Argonne where my team managed to match the super fast all-cap scoring rate through kills. KPM was high enough to keep my team neck and neck with all cap scoring from 500 to 700 score. Eventually we lost steam and finished with 1000-932 but that just goes to show how messed up scoring is right now.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:25am

Conq is mostly messed up because of shitty map design.


Actually no.

The reason why CQ is messed up right now isn't down to maps.

It's because the ticket system allows kills now when the flag scoring was tuned without it.

For example, I have a match on Amiens where 640 tickets were obtained from kills. Flag possession is meaningless.



Bleed used to put a guy with 15.0 KPM on your team.

Now it's around 4.0 KPM.

The influence of kills outweighs flags.

Just yesterday I had an all-cap on Argonne where my team managed to match the super fast all-cap scoring rate through kills. KPM was high enough to keep my team neck and neck with all cap scoring from 500 to 700 score. Eventually we lost steam and finished with 1000-932 but that just goes to show how messed up scoring is right now.
It's both.

The maps are still flag focused, and typically designed with one of three shitifying features:

1) fighting up a giant, nearly open terrain feature.

2) getting squeezed through bottlenecks.

3) linearized so that flanking is a no go.

Some maps combine many shitty features. Giant's shadow for eg.

The fact that back capping is useless to win in the meta sense and has been depricated to a means of luring back enemies so that your team can contest the meaningfully terrain flags just makes it even worse.

Also didn't we have a discussion some months ago where I basically said that killing dominates scoring and thus conq meta was fucked and you were ardently disagreeing with me? :P

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:33am

Do you think a Chess Grandmaster should take the complaints of someone who has never touched the game before seriously?

I thought a senseless appeal to authority goes against the very spirit of Symthic's discourse on gameplay balancing, but here we have an actual Battlefield Grandmaster who claims to know better than us casuals on what works for the game.


Quoted

But DICE listening to the community's input too much is why Conquest is completely messed up right now

Conquest was completely fine before, so why was the change from the bleed style ticket system to what we have now even necessary in the first place? Again, another example of a completely unneeded and unwarranted change from the "Grandmasters" who apparently know best.

You yourself state that people with a major flag deficit had to pump out a ridiculous amount of kills per minute in BF4 to catch up. In a system where people gain points for just having their own team's flags existing, it completely depreciates the value of holding and defending the majority of flags and discourages back capping. It goes beyond just simple killing, although that is a considerable factor right now as is.

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Friday, April 21st 2017, 1:41am


Conquest was completely fine before, so why was the change from the bleed style ticket system to what we have now even necessary in the first place? Again, another example of a completely unneeded and unwarranted change from the "Grandmasters" who apparently know best.
You yourself state that people with a major flag deficit had to pump out a ridiculous amount of kills per minute in BF4 to catch up. In a system where people gain points for just having their own team's flags existing, it completely depreciates the value of holding and defending the majority of flags and discourages back capping. It goes beyond just simple killing, although that is a considerable factor right now as is.
Because they screwed themselves both ways:

Originally, the new conq system and thus ticket bleeding was balanced around not losing tickets when teamates were sent back to the respawn screen.

People complained that this was a shitty system. I totally agree with this complaint, especially with the huge array of kill farming, but not flag capturing devices DICE decided to add into a BF1, a game they then decided shouldn't have kill farming directly influencing team victories.

People whined enough that they aquiesced and brought back tickets for perma-kills but didn't really bring the balance back in line with titles that had this previously.

This is really just an example of failing in every aspect.