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Fighter Planes + Ranken Darts: A Balancing Disaster?

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Posts: 269

Date of registration
: Jun 9th 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 12:25am

If I recalled correctly I think DICE's balance philosophy is around a team with no voice or chat comms? I feel like in previous battlefields I only need TEAMwork to win. Like giving out ammo to TEAMmates, reviving TEAMmates, taking on a tank with engineers on the same TEAM, covering routes that are not covered by TEAMmates. All those things I can do just by looking around and on the minimap. Do you guys think DICE is now gravitating towards balance based on a communicating squad? If so I think this might be a game that is drifting further away from my style of game.

Posts: 3,291

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 12:39am

Quoted from "sid_tai"

If I recalled correctly I think DICE's balance philosophy is around a team with no voice or chat comms?

That would be correct. I'll try and find the news post that highlighted this detail.

Quoted from "sid_tai"

Do you guys think DICE is now gravitating towards balance based on a communicating squad?

Definitely not, we can see evidence of this through in-game hints and prompts like the need health/ ammo indicator and the spot revive being tested in the CTE. Hell, 3D spotting is proof of that. It's just that a communicating squad can hurdle every obstacle associated with Battlefield's (really the community's) lack of inherent coordination. Using voice and text chat is basically a loophole in the system. However, I think the goal to create a coordination-oriented game assuming no communication is a failed endeavor. I truly believe that there must be voice communication in order to play the game by its intention, and a lot of people aren't willing to talk with a bunch or random people for a couple rounds.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$tho Posts: 1,948 Date of registration : Jan 12th 2014 Platform: PC Battlelog: Reputation modifier: 14 Thursday, April 20th 2017, 12:53am Quoted from "sid_tai" If I recalled correctly I think DICE's balance philosophy is around a team with no voice or chat comms? I feel like in previous battlefields I only need TEAMwork to win. Like giving out ammo to TEAMmates, reviving TEAMmates, taking on a tank with engineers on the same TEAM, covering routes that are not covered by TEAMmates. All those things I can do just by looking around and on the minimap. Do you guys think DICE is now gravitating towards balance based on a communicating squad? If so I think this might be a game that is drifting further away from my style of game. VOIP adds tremendous advantages to playing, sort of like the difference between using hand tools vs power tools. You can always get the job done, and done well, but power tools make your life so much easier. This implies that everyone involved in the design and balancing process want the same thing and that the choices made were done to deliberately emphasize the role of squad play - as opposed to merely an ultimately consequence of all of the design choices made. All that I know is that one person involved at DICE wanted people playing outside of squads to have significantly more difficulty. And that's exactly what we got. Beyond that, who knows really. Posts: 68 Date of registration : Mar 2nd 2017 Platform: PS4 Reputation modifier: 1 Thursday, April 20th 2017, 6:43am I have absolutely no problem playing with skilled/experienced players without VoIP. I think the commo rose is a fantastic tool. But yeah, playing with randoms is quite painful. It sucks that DICE decided to not keep that Hardline feature where you could grab stuff off teammates because 'muh teamwork', but thought auto-regenerating ammo and grenades was a great idea. And of course, playing without a squad should be difficult, considering the great lengths DICE went to make it easy to party up with a group of friends /s. Posts: 3,291 Date of registration : Apr 26th 2013 Platform: PS4 Location: Arizona, USA Reputation modifier: 15 Thursday, April 20th 2017, 8:02am Quoted from "oba" It sucks that DICE decided to not keep that Hardline feature where you could grab stuff off teammates because 'muh teamwork' While a convenient feature, I've come to realize that this mechanic is about as casual as it could possibly be for resupplies and heals. Medics and Supports could get free points just by existing and would literally have to do nothing. Coincidentally, David "tiggr" Sirland agrees with this notion: Quoted TheLankySoldier Any messages towards the Support, yes, I agree. As long as we're not "stealing" ammo from him and he has no idea, I'm good with that. tiggr Indeed - because if anything is casualizing it is that IMO To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question. Nope. 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Posts: 68

Date of registration
: Mar 2nd 2017

Platform: PS4

Reputation modifier: 1

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 8:17am

Quoted from "oba"

It sucks that DICE decided to not keep that Hardline feature where you could grab stuff off teammates because 'muh teamwork'

While a convenient feature, I've come to realize that this mechanic is about as casual as it could possibly be for resupplies and heals. Medics and Supports could get free points just by existing and would literally have to do nothing. Coincidentally, David "tiggr" Sirland agrees with this notion:

Quoted

TheLankySoldier
Any messages towards the Support, yes, I agree. As long as we're not "stealing" ammo from him and he has no idea, I'm good with that.

tiggr
Indeed - because if anything is casualizing it is that IMO
As opposed to now, where the Support player has to spend hours on end practicing to reach the high skill ceiling of hitting the d-pad skillfully? lmao

I'm aware of DICE's unfortunate stance on it, I've spoken to a dev about it but it's still frustrating because we all know the state of the playerbase. I think it's rich that they can call it 'casualized', after spending hours coding in the elite classes and the spiritual successor to Commando Pro.

Posts: 274

Date of registration
: Dec 2nd 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Nepped On

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 9:44am

I'm speechless how they consider that feature "casualized," considering the 10 million other things BF1 exclusive things that dumb it down for a casual audience. Like magically regenerating grenades without the need of a Support resupply.

It's so many things like this that make me almost ready to give up on BF1 for the same reasons VincentNZ said. I'm not going to wait for another year for them to incorporate nearly 3 year's worth of progress from BF4's CTE on top of tackling BF1's own issues, when they'll have announced a BF1 sequel by then. I honestly hope they take the lessons from both BF4 and BF1 and actually put effort into making it a solid title that is supported for a very long time, not on a 2-year development cycle to compete with Call of Duty.

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 7,082

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 9:58am

Because the Support has little, if any, impact aside from simply existing.

What about magical resupply is casual? What about actively finding a Support player isn't? From where I stand, casual isn't even an applicable term here. Nowhere is it defined either.

The "magical" resupply gave DICE a way to make Support relevant in-combat similar to what Medics can do. We have a system that creates interesting interaction between players and for the first time could have made Support matter for firefights outside of fringe cases.

It really is a shame that DICE decided against what potentially would have pushed Battlefield into modern game design.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 274

Date of registration
: Dec 2nd 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Nepped On

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 9

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 11:50am

Quoted

Because the Support has little, if any, impact aside from simply existing.

Support is already powerful enough now by having high capacity weapons, indirect fire gadgets, and being able to constantly top off Assaults and Scouts for anti-armor and surveillance. The silly thing is DICE expecting a well rounded squad to be more effective at AT than an exclusively Assault only squad (one of the goals of Ammo 2.0), and it epitomizes how much they're lost on the direction and execution of the game.

Quoted

What about magical resupply is casual? What about actively finding a Support player isn't? From where I stand, casual isn't even an applicable term here. Nowhere is it defined either.

The "magical" resupply gave DICE a way to make Support relevant in-combat similar to what Medics can do. We have a system that creates interesting interaction between players and for the first time could have made Support matter for firefights outside of fringe cases.

It really is a shame that DICE decided against what potentially would have pushed Battlefield into modern game design.

If you want to go by tiggr's own definition, "casualization" is defined by encouraging less teamwork, while Ammo 2.0 was supposed to encourage more teamwork. There were good ideas, like having the Ammo Box "oversupply" primary and gadget ammo. And gadgets by themselves slowly regenerating a limited amount, because some classes are defined entirely by their gadgets (Assaults, Scouts + Flares). I was all totally for this.

At the same time... People are allowed to self-resupply grenades without a Support, when the entire point of the patch was to reduce grenade spam while making Support have more of an impact during firefights. They can point out statistics that it did indeed reduce spam, but it hardly changed anyone's perceptions of the volleys they endure at chokepoints. Players get actively punished for using their gadgets and dying without having any Support around to resupply them, especially Assaults, when the very thing DICE should be encouraging is players fulfilling their team role and dumping their AT gadgets as much as possible to thwart armor threats. They also reduced the AT Rocket capacity by 1, and giving them a paltry damage buff that doesn't make up for it.

This the heart of what me and other people have been getting at. Some people here lament that Reddit was too stupid to accept Ammo 2.0, when DICE just did a very terrible job selling it. How do you make the game less casual and encourage more player interaction, when you implement things that seemingly contradict it (grenade self-resupply) and at the cost of regular gadget use and effectiveness?

Even if Hardline's "press E to receive HP/ammo" was implemented in BF1, it would solve one of the longest dilemmas of the franchise by letting people grab what they need from inattentive players, but actual teamwork would still be encouraged simply because it's far more effective for Medics and Supports to actively deploy their gadgets. Would pressing E on a Medic magically keep an entire squad topped off and alive in a firefight? Would it let a single Assault solo a Heavy Tank by chucking 6 Geballte Ladung from behind a rock?

PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 7,082

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Thursday, April 20th 2017, 11:59am

Quoted from "Ritobasu"

Support is already powerful enough now by having high capacity weapons, indirect fire gadgets, and being able to constantly top off Assaults and Scouts for anti-armor and surveillance. The silly thing is DICE expecting a well rounded squad to be more effective at AT than an exclusively Assault only squad (one of the goals of Ammo 2.0), and it epitomizes how much they're lost on the direction and execution of the game.

Is there a problem with them trying to stop people from overstacking one class and trying to make balanced comps better?

I think encouraging diversity leads to more interesting gameplay than simply seeing one class.

Quoted from "Ritobasu"

Players get actively punished for using their gadgets and dying without having any Support around to resupply them, especially Assaults, when the very thing DICE should be encouraging is players fulfilling their team role and dumping their AT gadgets as much as possible to thwart armor threats. They also reduced the AT Rocket capacity by 1, and giving them a paltry damage buff that doesn't make up for it.

They would actually get punished if the minMags was set to 0 like an actual CD system.

Normally, the CD would tick passively and spawn you with 0 charges.

What the minMags field did was make sure you were not spawned in with 0 ammo but you still had to wait for your cooldowns as if you had never died.

This is exactly how the Support Mortar works.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

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