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## Fighter Planes + Ranken Darts: A Balancing Disaster?

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Posts: 294

Date of registration
: Jun 9th 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 10

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 11:15pm

Liking all the analyses here. I think BleedingUranium has a point about TTK. That could be the reason why BF1 is frustrating. But back onto planes. It was certainly frustrating because I could be looking at the sky 50% of the time looking for a plane, only to deal damage to him in the teens, and he can rep back the damage and come kill me again during the 50% of the time I wasn't looking at the sky. In BF4 I could SMAW the helicopter and if I hit I would get at least a mobility disable on AH, and OHK on a SH. If I missed, it was my own lack of skill. If I got a OHK, the satisfaction was immense. I do not find that at all in BF1. The possibility to outplay/outskill air was, to put it nicely, greatly diminished.

For the vehicle balance issue, the feeling in general is that in BF1 the only way to destroy a vehicle is to pile on it. There is no other way around it because each gadget is not very effective on its own. (AT mine is effective, but it requires the enemy team not spotting it so it goes into a separate category) In BF4 you can choose to pile on a vehicle, causing it to retreat or die, or you can use superior positioning (tank ass shot), superior skill (RPG to the helo face, SRAW) to kill it.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Monday, April 17th 2017, 1:48am

One hit kill Rocket Gun on Fighters and Attack Planes. 2 hit kill on Bombers. Anyone interested?
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### My "Contributions"

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,639

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Monday, April 17th 2017, 4:16am

OHK on Fighters, but not the other two.

Should be very high damage vs Attack Planes, but OHK would make them pretty awful in the exact situations they should be good, down lowish and slowish fighting infantry and armour. Fighters have little business being low or near infantry, and coupled with their size and speed, OHK is fair. Possibly giving the Darts more dispersion over distance would help make them more risk/reward, where using them effectively would force the pilot to fly low and thus in infantry retaliation range.

Somewhere in the 75-90 range for the Attack Plane, 50-65 for the Bomber.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Monday, April 17th 2017, 4:25am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

I don't think they ever got ground fired stingers or iglas to be really viable air killers, they just worked to deny some airspace between flared runs.

Javelin was added as a choice in BF3/BF4 as a team weapon, not a solo weapon. You are supposed to fire on designated targets painted by SOFLAM third seaters, armor gunners, or recons, or attack helos. It is exceptionally powerful in that capacity.
Ya.. no.

The AA missiles never did deny airspace in BF3. Given if a pilot ever entered the stigla range. At least not if the pilot was running ECM and was slightly good. The countermeasure reload time of the airvehicles was so fast any follow up stinger was senseless. The pilot would run off and wait until CM's reloaded again and press X. Then to turn around and kill every spotted icon out of the stigla range. It just would not hit good pilots. The same can be seen in BF4. Good pilots run ECM, stigla locks on, ECM pops up, airvehicle finishes its run and is out of range/behind cover/in high alttidue before 2nd stigla missile could reacquire target. They had no impact on good pilots.

Same with javelins against tanks. Soflam+Jav combo against tanks didnt work. The IR Smoke reloaded too fast, and the javelin magically exploded.

This included Guided bombs by airvehicles:

There were real chimpansees at work at DICE working on BF3 balance.

I'm afraid they hired the same chimps to work on BF1's vehicle balance.
Well you're just wrong.

BF3 IR smoke required giving up an optic (BFD depending on the map). BF4 IR smoke required giving up the objectively superior smokescreen that was better in every other engagement situation except lock on spam.

In all cases employing a hard counter to lock on spam required selecting a overall much inferior loadout against generalist and vehicle threats.

Far from being bad balance it's actually good balance. Assisted lock ons require zero skill/effort on the shooter's part. It is logical the counter to them be extremely robust but involving major trade offs. This was accomplished.

Pilot + gunner flares on gunship was a disaster of course, but BF3 just had bad air balance.

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Monday, April 17th 2017, 4:36am

### Quoted from "sid_tai"

Liking all the analyses here. I think BleedingUranium has a point about TTK. That could be the reason why BF1 is frustrating. But back onto planes. It was certainly frustrating because I could be looking at the sky 50% of the time looking for a plane, only to deal damage to him in the teens, and he can rep back the damage and come kill me again during the 50% of the time I wasn't looking at the sky. In BF4 I could SMAW the helicopter and if I hit I would get at least a mobility disable on AH, and OHK on a SH. If I missed, it was my own lack of skill. If I got a OHK, the satisfaction was immense. I do not find that at all in BF1. The possibility to outplay/outskill air was, to put it nicely, greatly diminished.

For the vehicle balance issue, the feeling in general is that in BF1 the only way to destroy a vehicle is to pile on it. There is no other way around it because each gadget is not very effective on its own. (AT mine is effective, but it requires the enemy team not spotting it so it goes into a separate category) In BF4 you can choose to pile on a vehicle, causing it to retreat or die, or you can use superior positioning (tank ass shot), superior skill (RPG to the helo face, SRAW) to kill it.
In BF1 it is very easy to pile on tanks though because they are so damn slow.

People must be seriously misremembering fighting tanks in BF3/BF4. BF3 had ERA that ignored the first ass shot, and you could then pillar away any follow ons. BF4 had such generous angle reductions that it was rare to actually score a rear facing critical hit.

The fact that dumb tank drivers were fairly easy to dispatch is irrelevant from a balance perspective. Dumb tanks in BF1 are also easy to dispatch too, you just have to shoot them a bit more.

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,639

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Monday, April 17th 2017, 4:45am

Whether that's true or not, it's missing my point about slow TTKs, and other things in general being slow.

Tanks are slow, AT weapons kill slowly, AA weapons kill slowly, most guns in the game kill slowly. It's very hard in BF1 to think "I'm going to spawn in and do something about this tank/plane/enemy/etc", you simply can't do much by yourself.

This carries over to the new Conquest system too; in BF4 a team could really push to hold half-plus-one even if the score was like 600-50, there was always hope and it was always worth attempting something. In BF1... nah, why bother? If I'm not going to meaningfully be able to affect the score, why bother trying? If I don't have much chance of taking a tank myself (even a lowly Arty Truck), why bother? Why bother shooting at planes?

Putting things out of reach of individual players like this removes key elements of drive and purpose from the game.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Monday, April 17th 2017, 6:14am

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

In BF1... nah, why bother? If I'm not going to meaningfully be able to affect the score, why bother trying? If I don't have much chance of taking a tank myself (even a lowly Arty Truck), why bother? Why bother shooting at planes?

Putting things out of reach of individual players like this removes key elements of drive and purpose from the game.

This is the general feeling I get out of BF1. Outside of actively trying to have fun with it, there really isn't much motivation to do anything. And that's saying something. The fact that the fun just doesn't happen as anticipated and that I have to coerce it through jumping through this and that hoop in order to achieve certain levels of enjoyment is a little disconcerting to be honest. I keep referring to BF3, but the fun of that game just happened without having to force it by any means and while BF3's balance was objectively terrible I still consider it to be the pinnacle of my FPS "career". Somehow it was just pure fun and I can't really pinpoint the exact reasons why I feel that way.

Perhaps the combining factors consisted of rather stupendous map design, a lack of in depth knowledge that led me to believe there was actually weapon variety (when there really wasn't), 24 max players that eliminated the 'zerg', the ability to fend off poor vehicle operators on my lonesome, and the Mastery Dogtag system. Perhaps I know too much about the basics of Battlefield's game mechanics so there is no mystery to unveil. Whatever the case(s), all I know is that my overall enjoyment with Battlefield has declined since BF3 which I even consider shocking to admit considering that mechanics and their corresponding dynamics have significantly improved since then.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

Posts: 2,015

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Monday, April 17th 2017, 11:59am

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Mother of god tank, NO ONE LIKES TO RESPAWN. Stats don't have a goddamn thing to do with it. I don't care if I have practically limitless lives, I don't want to die at all; it is not fun to spawn in over and over again, but it's a necessary evil with how BF1's vehicles work. Infantry against vehicles is like the equivalent of facing an end of level boss in an RPG; you gotta throw everything you have at them in a very specific manner otherwise you'll just die and have to start all over again.

And it really isn't all of DICE's fault that Battlefield doesn't work how they want it to in pubs. The community shares the blame as well because a lot of them don't know the best way to play. They probably have no idea what coordination looks like because pub Battlefield is very casual in nature with a small portion of players who actually understand the gist of the game mechanics and how they actually function.
People generally don't seem to care about dying in suicidal attacks that generate multi-kills and the like. Where dying sucks is when you are getting farmed in futile efforts to move across open ground and the like. Or when you suceed in getting closer to a flag and in cover only to get mowed down by a pack of defenders because no one zerged with you.

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

In BF1... nah, why bother? If I'm not going to meaningfully be able to affect the score, why bother trying? If I don't have much chance of taking a tank myself (even a lowly Arty Truck), why bother? Why bother shooting at planes?

Putting things out of reach of individual players like this removes key elements of drive and purpose from the game.

This is the general feeling I get out of BF1. Outside of actively trying to have fun with it, there really isn't much motivation to do anything. And that's saying something. The fact that the fun just doesn't happen as anticipated and that I have to coerce it through jumping through this and that hoop in order to achieve certain levels of enjoyment is a little disconcerting to be honest. I keep referring to BF3, but the fun of that game just happened without having to force it by any means and while BF3's balance was objectively terrible I still consider it to be the pinnacle of my FPS "career". Somehow it was just pure fun and I can't really pinpoint the exact reasons why I feel that way.

Perhaps the combining factors consisted of rather stupendous map design, a lack of in depth knowledge that led me to believe there was actually weapon variety (when there really wasn't), 24 max players that eliminated the 'zerg', the ability to fend off poor vehicle operators on my lonesome, and the Mastery Dogtag system. Perhaps I know too much about the basics of Battlefield's game mechanics so there is no mystery to unveil. Whatever the case(s), all I know is that my overall enjoyment with Battlefield has declined since BF3 which I even consider shocking to admit considering that mechanics and their corresponding dynamics have significantly improved since then.
All BF games have some dud or less than memorable maps, BF1 is just nothing but duds with one or two exceptions. On top of that it even has some downright awful ones: Suez, Fao, etc.

The worst part is that people keep whining that vehicles break game balance. But these worse maps are primarily infantry focused with just a single vehicle slot. So it's not like tanks or the trenchie, or other derping planes are the issue.

As you said, BF3 was pretty fun despite objectively worse balancing issues - especially with airderping the shit out of everything. BF2 was the same way. It is not balancing issues with specific vehicles that is what hurts the subjective BF1 experience, they are just salt magnets.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Apr 17th 2017, 12:06pm)

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