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  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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151

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 2:54pm

So, the problem is well defined: Y axis paranoia, plus, tragedy of the commons. These are both psychological issues with players and I've no clue how to snap them out of it. But at least we've defined it.

We're definitely onto something here Capta, but now we must identify why BF1 players exhibit such a strong case of those issues. I think Noctyrne may have provided the answer we' ve been looking for, albeit unintentionally.

I don't think a force multiplier would necessarily count as a "force multiplier" if it is not able to stand up to the pressure of more than one player.

-----------------------------

BF4's air and armor could be soloed in pubs; they weren't actually force multipliers unless in control by very experienced pilots and tankers, which wasn't necessarily a regular occurrence by any means I would imagine. A single Engineer with a dumb fire launcher could kill an out of position tank or helicopter with relative ease if the operators were bad enough (which in many cases they were), because dumb fires could one hit kill helis and seriously fuck up or outright destroy a tank in a couple well placed hits.

BF1's vehicles, in general, are true force multipliers now; no one infantryman can easily solo any vehicle in BF1 especially planes in pubs (except maybe the light tank and artillery truck). I think this has led to Y axis paranoia and tragedy of the commons. With tanks now requiring a full squad's amount of effort to neutralize and infantry being devoid of a gadget that can one hit kill pesky aircraft we have players who exhibit severe cases of these two symptoms because they are now just learning about how force multipliers work and what they are. Prior titles didn't really teach them because they didn't truly exist in many cases.

I have never felt so helpless against vehicles as I have with BF1. In BF3/4 I felt I had the necessary tools to combat a vehicle on my own power which led me to attack vehicles as often as I could because my tank/ heli competition wasn't all that good. I have to imagine that if I feel this way, then other players must be as well. The thing is countering vehicles in coordination in Battlefield hasn't ever been an absolute necessity, but now it is and I think many are still adapting to this change. I know for certain that I won't engage a tank unless I see fellow infantry with AT equipment nearby in hopes they'll join in.

But it's different with tanks; they're right there at eye level, stuck to the ground, and they're slow so accumulating the effort of randoms with AT isn't as difficult because once a tank is spotted it generally gets players' attention. Planes on the other hand are above eye level, located in the air (duh), and are just fast. Even if you can gather the attention of randoms away from the ground it's probably already too late because you've either been bombed or they flew out of range. So far, the only success stories I've seen regarding a combined effort to shoot down planes has involved communication. This is a problem. DICE said themselves that the game should work as intended without communication and as we can see it basically doesn't, otherwise we would see players regularly working in conjunction to counter force multipliers. Right now planes are perceived as strong and untouchable because they necessitate that more than one player shoots at it at the same time which is rare unless communication is involved.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Apr 16th 2017, 3:19pm)


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152

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 3:14pm

I don't think a force multiplier would necessarily count as a "force multiplier" if it is not able to stand up to the pressure of more than one player.

It's presumptuous to think vehicles should always be force multipliers that can stand up to single infantry. They are tools, and if an infantry brings something to smash up your tool and applies it skillfully, your beloved tool is going to have a really bad day, if not explode outright, without appropriate countermeasures or support.

What separates BF1 from the other games is how much more difficult it is for infantry to apply their own anti-vehicle tools effectively, and the larger gap between BF1's anti-vehicle gadgets vs solo driving BF1's vehicles.

Why is the trenchfighter in the game anyway? The other 2 fighters are barely being used. I dont see that changing after the nerf, as the TF will be the best to dogfight ánd farm infantry. It yields the most kills while maintaining the ability to engage equally dogfights. It even downs bombers in two runs after the buffs fighters MG's got against them (which wasnt needed with the bomber killer in imo). The TF loadout is stupid. It overlaps roles.

DICE has been dropping the ball when it comes to vehicles for this game. It's not just balance problems against infantry, but even among vehicles themselves. Release Landships were a mess, and the A7V has dominated the tank meta consistently until the St. Chammond was made available. Why does the Mortar Truck exist? Or the vanilla FT-17 with 4 shell capacity?

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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153

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 3:36pm

DICE has been dropping the ball when it comes to vehicles for this game.

I think vehicles are just impossible to properly balance in any form. I get that vehicles are one of Battlefield's big selling points, but I think the game would work much smoother if vehicles were absent (or at least fighters were removed). When I saw that Hardline was primarily infantry based I was pretty excited, but they completely dropped the ball on execution. I didn't play past the Beta. Another crack at an infantry only game with transports would be worth it in my estimation.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Zer0Cod3x

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154

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 5:20pm

The problem with vehicles in general is that they require a certain level of teamwork to destroy, a level which is just not seen on pubs.

I really don't envy DICE's balancing job - how to retain a vehicle's role as a force multiplier, but with lessening the amount of teamwork required to destroy one (or encouraging more players to demonstrate the level of teamwork required to destroy one).
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


C0llis

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155

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 5:51pm

What separates BF1 from the other games is how much more difficult it is for infantry to apply their own anti-vehicle tools effectively, and the larger gap between BF1's anti-vehicle gadgets vs solo driving BF1's vehicles.
BF3 says hi. Remember how stiglas were just a waste of the gadget slot that were unable to do anything against any competent pilot? Or how the javelin also was a waste of the gadget slot that couldn't get a hit on any player who knew how to hit "x" outside ~60 meters because IR-flare cooldown vs traveltime & reload? Or how RPG/SMAW could be dodged by armor outside throwing distance and even if you scored a hit you could have to throw 3-4 more downrange before you got through ERA?

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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Sunday, April 16th 2017, 7:38pm

What separates BF1 from the other games is how much more difficult it is for infantry to apply their own anti-vehicle tools effectively, and the larger gap between BF1's anti-vehicle gadgets vs solo driving BF1's vehicles.
BF3 says hi. Remember how stiglas were just a waste of the gadget slot that were unable to do anything against any competent pilot? Or how the javelin also was a waste of the gadget slot that couldn't get a hit on any player who knew how to hit "x" outside ~60 meters because IR-flare cooldown vs traveltime & reload? Or how RPG/SMAW could be dodged by armor outside throwing distance and even if you scored a hit you could have to throw 3-4 more downrange before you got through ERA?
BF2 still had the most blatantly imbalanced combined arms meta because of the air balance. BF3 managed to come very close with the air balance and also had absurdly powerful armor because of ERA.

I don't think they ever got ground fired stingers or iglas to be really viable air killers, they just worked to deny some airspace between flared runs.

Javelin was added as a choice in BF3/BF4 as a team weapon, not a solo weapon. You are supposed to fire on designated targets painted by SOFLAM third seaters, armor gunners, or recons, or attack helos. It is exceptionally powerful in that capacity.

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157

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 7:58pm

I don't think they ever got ground fired stingers or iglas to be really viable air killers, they just worked to deny some airspace between flared runs.

Javelin was added as a choice in BF3/BF4 as a team weapon, not a solo weapon. You are supposed to fire on designated targets painted by SOFLAM third seaters, armor gunners, or recons, or attack helos. It is exceptionally powerful in that capacity.
Ya.. no.

The AA missiles never did deny airspace in BF3. Given if a pilot ever entered the stigla range. At least not if the pilot was running ECM and was slightly good. The countermeasure reload time of the airvehicles was so fast any follow up stinger was senseless. The pilot would run off and wait until CM's reloaded again and press X. Then to turn around and kill every spotted icon out of the stigla range. It just would not hit good pilots. The same can be seen in BF4. Good pilots run ECM, stigla locks on, ECM pops up, airvehicle finishes its run and is out of range/behind cover/in high alttidue before 2nd stigla missile could reacquire target. They had no impact on good pilots.

Same with javelins against tanks. Soflam+Jav combo against tanks didnt work. The IR Smoke reloaded too fast, and the javelin magically exploded.

This included Guided bombs by airvehicles:



There were real chimpansees at work at DICE working on BF3 balance.

I'm afraid they hired the same chimps to work on BF1's vehicle balance.
RIP Sraw

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158

Sunday, April 16th 2017, 8:59pm

A significant problem with everything in BF1 is a lack of tools that deliver high burst-damage. In BF4 you could OHK all aircraft with dumbfire rockets (even if hard or luck-based), you could get behind an MBT and ram two RPGs up its ass before it could react, and so many other similar things.

In BF1 we seem to have a huge shift to slowing down all TTKs, from things like the "but they're really accurate" Lewis and Huot with their atrocious damage and velocity, to the Rocket Gun's pathetic 15-ish damage no matter what angle you hit an A7V, to getting at best 15-ish damage on a Fighter with the best AA tools infantry can use (guns), to the Tank Hunter Attack Plane with its average at-best AT damage output, and so on.

Even Ammo 2.0 is based around this philosophy, having constant ammo slowly instead of a lot at once. People don't want a slow, constant supply of Smoke Grenades, they want two Smoke Grenades right now. High burst usage. Why do you think the Automatico is such a popular weapon? It kills very fast, faster than most people can do anything about in most situations, is perfectly usable at nearly any relevant range, and is also very easy to use. The Rem 8 .35 is also another fantastic high burst damage weapon, one that is definitely effective at all relevant ranges, but is just a bit harder to use.


There are very few things that come close to allowing this kind of high burst damage output in BF1, one of them is the Tank Hunter Landship, and another is getting a Tank within AT Grenade range, but even that is pretty lacking. I was trying to take A on Grappa and there was a pesky Arty Truck hanging around. After a few deaths that saw him just repair all his damage before I could get back on him again, I managed to spawn outside his LoS and sneak up about 15m away, beside him. AT Grenade, Light AT Grenade, AT Grenade, drop prone, Rocket Gun shot, he died.

It felt fast, but really only by BF1 standards. I expended all three of my grenades and a Rocket Gun shot (which I have to be prone and stationary for) just to take down a silly little Arty Truck, when in BF4 I could have dropped an MBT in a mere two RPG shots. And the first RPG inflicts a Disable, meaning he's neither leaving nor turning to minimize damage, while I'm pretty sure none of my hits on the Arty Truck were Disables.

And that's best case scenario against the weakest Tank in BF1. Everything in BF1 is slow, and individual actions/shots rarely have significant impact/damage on their own. That's why people so often feel like they're not accomplishing anything.
Who Enjoys, Wins

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (Apr 16th 2017, 9:05pm)


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: Jan 12th 2014

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Sunday, April 16th 2017, 9:06pm

The problem with vehicles in general is that they require a certain level of teamwork to destroy, a level which is just not seen on pubs.

I really don't envy DICE's balancing job - how to retain a vehicle's role as a force multiplier, but with lessening the amount of teamwork required to destroy one (or encouraging more players to demonstrate the level of teamwork required to destroy one).
People just need to grow the fuck up and stop whining about vehicles being fundamentally asymmetric. You get infinite lives in BF, dying doesn't matter unless you lose position. You're not sitting out until round end, etc.

The biggest blow to BF balance IMO was the implementation of detailed stats tracking where the CS KDR status-whoring could be transplanted to a game like BF where it doesn't and shouldn't matter.

BF is a teamwork centric game, but where the baseline selling point encourages you to play it like you're the lone wolf hero of a single player game that has a sort of dull NPC squad attached. Supporting roles are neither glamourized nor rewarded points wise.

The balancing job is one thing, but BF needs to sit down and decide what sort of game it wants to be again. It's designed around coordinated squads and complimentary plays between squads. Instead we generally get packs of lone wolves zerg rushing single flags. etc

  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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Sunday, April 16th 2017, 9:42pm

Mother of god tank, NO ONE LIKES TO RESPAWN. Stats don't have a goddamn thing to do with it. I don't care if I have practically limitless lives, I don't want to die at all; it is not fun to spawn in over and over again, but it's a necessary evil with how BF1's vehicles work. Infantry against vehicles is like the equivalent of facing an end of level boss in an RPG; you gotta throw everything you have at them in a very specific manner otherwise you'll just die and have to start all over again.

And it really isn't all of DICE's fault that Battlefield doesn't work how they want it to in pubs. The community shares the blame as well because a lot of them don't know the best way to play. They probably have no idea what coordination looks like because pub Battlefield is very casual in nature with a small portion of players who actually understand the gist of the game mechanics and how they actually function.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
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    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
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    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
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    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
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    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
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    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
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    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
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    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
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    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
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    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
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    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
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    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
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    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
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    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
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    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
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    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
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    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho