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## Fighter Planes + Ranken Darts: A Balancing Disaster?

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Posts: 180

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: UK

Battlelog:

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Friday, April 14th 2017, 12:24pm

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

I certainly care about plane balance, because I want the other planes to not suck like they do right now, and I want them to be more challenging to fly. What part of my extensive participation in this thread gave you an impression that I don't care? LOL dude you're making NO sense.

"Look, I'm all for fixing balance problems, but that isn't a patch that will do so."

"If it's balance, teamwork, fun gameplay for all and reward for skill that you're after, this is not the patch you're looking for. But if what you want is for the whole fighter class to suck... hey, celebrate. We're heading back to the crappy BF4 stealth jet meta."

You apparently disagree with the major nerf the Trench Fighter got in the CTE because you think the Fighter class will suck as a whole, which is just stupid. Sure, each Fighter variant won't be equally good, but which class of vehicles does have 3 equally viable options? A couple of underpowered options is clearly a much better situation than an absolutely dominant vehicle which makes all other Planes redundant.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

That's not even close to my stance. I've no idea where you're getting this from.
Trench fighter has no weaponry similar to the attack jet. No heavy cannon with splash, no heavy bombs for armour, so firstly they aren't comparable at all. The attack plane has similar cannon, and bomber similar bombs. Trench fighter has neither.

Do you really need an explanation with this? The Ground Support Attack plane's anti-infantry abilities is matched by the Trench Fighter, only the Trench Fighter has Stealth Jet like dogfighting abilities to go with it. You're taking the comparison far too literally and missing the point altogether.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

You said "again,....." as if you'd asked me this previously, but you had not. Not even sure what you're trying to imply with the "semi-imaginary". MAA does exist in the game.

Well, given I didn't ask you that previously, it's pretty obvious "again" wasn't referring to that. The "semi-imaginary" part was reflecting how uncommmon the AA Truck is that it might as well be imaginary in a lot of matches.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

Sounds good. Enemy waits in spawn screen for his vehicle of choice, so do you. Balance. Excellent. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Except it's far too naive to suggest the situation is symmetrical. There are often more available Planes, they spawn quicker and, most importantly, the "Fighter" pilot will most likely have spawned in from the start and not be waiting around at all. To REACT with an AA Truck, you'd have to hope all of your available Tanks aren't still up, wait for the next one when they eventually aren't, try to snatch it off anyone else waiting for a tank, and then proceed to waste your Tank slot with the Truck.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

Wait, you're talking AA, so I point out the flaw in your logic (assuming unbalanced opponents when comparing vehicle balance) and now we're not talking about AA any more? You asked how AA does against fighters, I answered. It does just fine.

You're ignoring the availability of the AA Truck and only looking at its effectiveness, which is too simplistic. If each team were forced to run an AA Truck on certain maps, the Trench Fighter would be thwarted to an extent. But the AA Truck counters all Planes anyway, and this wouldn't fix the actual broken Plane balance being that the Trench Fighter is currently the only viable option for a Plane.

Also, what I was asking was how was the existence of the AA Truck doing in stopping the 107-0s, since it's hardly ever picked. I wasn't assuming an AA Truck was already on the Battlefield.

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

If you look at the thread, you'll notice that the reason we were discussing AA, was because I was prompted for a one-man counter for one-man fighters, and AA was one I listed.

The Fighter was supposed to just be a "one-man counter" for the heavier Planes which supposedly have more firepower themselves. But what they've done with the Fighter is like giving the AA Truck a secondary 75mm HE cannon (don't take this too literally again...) and extending its role way beyond what it should be. My suggestion is that the Trench Fighter should have less firepower and return to the Rock-Paper-Scissors philosophy that was intended from the outset. If it can outmanoeuvre every other class of Plane, it's only common sense that it shouldn't be able to ruin infantry just like them. It appears the CTE is finally addressing this and it'll make its way into vanilla shortly.

That is simply all I suggested when I seemed to bring this thread back to life. I didn't and still don't think something so obvious requires all of this excessive debating.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Shalan" (Apr 14th 2017, 12:43pm)

Posts: 2,014

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

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Friday, April 14th 2017, 9:38pm

### Quoted from "CaptaPraelium"

Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.

A Tank driver of similar skill would still be in their proper Tank continuing to PTFO if we were to play it out. They wouldn't switch to the AA Truck for the entire game just to deal with a single "Fighter" pilot who would keep spawning back in at every opportunity.
More importantly, a tank driver of similar skill switching over to camp the AA truck is actively hurting the team relative to just maining an actually useful tank.

Trenchies are annoying but they don't have a tremendous impact on the round. They generally kill at a lower rate than solo tanks, and they cannot contest flags, hold flags, or provide a spawn point.

The AA truck's place in the current meta is absolute garbage because it means trading what is often your ONLY tank slot for a vehicle that strictly speaking doesn't really do shit.

If you look at the thread, you'll notice that the reason we were discussing AA, was because I was prompted for a one-man counter for one-man fighters, and AA was one I listed. Then was asked whether it works in that role. Of course, the answer is that it does. Other roles like capping flags or being a spawn point were not the topic of discussion (although I did also list tank hunter landship which can perform all of those roles). The point was not to discuss tanks, the point was to list one-man counters for one-man planes. This all revolves around Shalan's complaint that the fighter didn't need to use teamwork to perform well, but teamwork would be needed to kill that fighter. I was pointing out that teamwork is only required to counter an enemy using a force multiplier (the plane) if the enemy are not using a similar force multiplier (such as a vehicle or elite kit)

I doubt it would be productive to bring tank balance discussion into this thread.
It's totally relevant when the conclusion of tank balance is that you should basically NEVER spawn an AA truck in any reasonable map situation.

From a meta perspective the AA truck basically spawned in with such infrequency that it might as well not exist. And when it is spawned it it always causes more problems for the team that is using it than it solves unless they are winning so easily that loss of a tank is irrelevant. But in that situation the trench fighter is also irrelevant, it's just causing some frustrating attrition.

Practically speaking this supposed counter to the fighter plane just doesn't really exist in the wild/in a useful fashion. Certainly spawning in an AA truck expressly to counter a trench fighter or two is a terrible idea.

In prior titles fixed wing air balance vs ground was dedicated by the guaranteed presence of an AA vehicle that also had secondary uses on the map. That concept has been destroyed by the limited omni slots implemented in BF1. They clearly intended to compensate for that by the SAA emplacements, but their lack of mobility makes balancing those very hard: if you make them too powerful SAA can just entirely shut down massive stretches of maps to enemy air period. If you make them too weak, their fixed location makes them really easy to brute force with air. Not an easy task.

The lack of an obvious and simple (albeit utterly ineffective) infantry gadget to counter air really hurts the rest of the air balance because you're relying entirely on that SAA and friendly air - objectively small arms are strong versus planes when in groups, but it is also fairly obvious that groups of infantry simply aren't shooting at planes. Again we find ourselves with a problematic/unsolvable balance problem. At least STIGLA was good for areal denial of air, if not kills.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Friday, April 14th 2017, 10:27pm

I'm going to keep saying this until it gets implemented: give the AA Truck it's own spawn slot.

Edit: Along the AA gadget concept, I would give Assault or Support a deployable AA MG - full 360° rotation and like a 10°-75° pitch, that way it's pointed at the air indicating its purpose.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Apr 14th 2017, 10:36pm)

Posts: 2,014

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

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Reputation modifier: 14

Friday, April 14th 2017, 11:31pm

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

I'm going to keep saying this until it gets implemented: give the AA Truck it's own spawn slot.

Edit: Along the AA gadget concept, I would give Assault or Support a deployable AA MG - full 360° rotation and like a 10°-75° pitch, that way it's pointed at the air indicating its purpose.
Not sufficient.

There should be an AA truck slot, 1-x heavy tank slots, and 1-x light slots (light tank or arty truck). Mortar truck should be outright removed from the game, IMO it's not worth the effort to actually balance it.

IMO planes should get a similar treatment, or at least a fighter/attack slot and a bomber slot.

You could set gimme vehicle flags (the few that exist) "Any vehicle" capability if you wanted.

The problem is that this would reveal just how anemic the current array of vehicle lots are, and the lack of real variety in how that could be arrayed. It makes little sense to me that amiens gets 4 tanks but Fao gets 2. Suez only gets 4, but soisson gets a wopping 8, etc.

The reason the trenchie dominates the META is because killing infantry basically dominates nearly ALL of the game meta because it's really the only way to get high scores.

Posts: 292

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: Dec 2nd 2013

Platform: PC

Location: California

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Saturday, April 15th 2017, 12:25am

Tankmayvin's restricted tank spawning idea makes sense. It existed in previous BF games as set vehicle spawns for MBTs and IFVs, so why doesn't it exist in BF1?

The AA Truck also needs to be a deployable asset on a flag like in previous games where planes have limited effectiveness to affect control of the area. Remember the MAA spawning under the dish in Rogue Transmission? Or on the island barracks in Paracel Storm? There was actually a need for boots on the ground to capture and control those areas if they wanted to deny a large swath of airspace to the enemy team. That way, the AA Truck stops taking up a worthless tank slot from spawn, and infantry can gain another way to significantly reduce the effectiveness of enemy planes or bolster their own air superiority even further

Think of point C on Monte Grappa as a potential AA Truck spawn, point D on Sinai Desert, C or D on St. Quentin's Scar/Empire's Edge, etc. Some other points can also possess a light armor slot as well, for FT-17s and Arty Artillery Trucks.

This post by "CaptaPraelium" (Saturday, April 15th 2017, 12:31am) has been deleted by user "Legion" (Saturday, April 15th 2017, 12:14pm) with the following reason: Rules 3 and 5

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: Sep 20th 2016

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Saturday, April 15th 2017, 12:33am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

The lack of an...) infantry gadget to counter air

Primary weapons work juuuust fine.

Up and down. Bounce all around

Posts: 3,100

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: Apr 15th 2013

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Saturday, April 15th 2017, 1:46am

### Quoted from "Ritobasu"

The AA Truck also needs to be a deployable asset on a flag like in previous games where planes have limited effectiveness to affect control of the area. Remember the MAA spawning under the dish in Rogue Transmission? Or on the island barracks in Paracel Storm? There was actually a need for boots on the ground to capture and control those areas if they wanted to deny a large swath of airspace to the enemy team. That way, the AA Truck stops taking up a worthless tank slot from spawn, and infantry can gain another way to significantly reduce the effectiveness of enemy planes or bolster their own air superiority even further

Think of point C on Monte Grappa as a potential AA Truck spawn, point D on Sinai Desert, C or D on St. Quentin's Scar/Empire's Edge, etc. Some other points can also possess a light armor slot as well, for FT-17s and Arty Artillery Trucks.
Not having lots of flag spawned assets is one of the few things BF1 does right and it's not something that should return.

Having counters tied to map control (or even pure force multipliers like tanks) is a generally shitty idea. The team that needs them the most is the least likely to get them and vice versa. It's a slippery slope mechanic, pure and simple.

No offence meant, but of all the things I have seen suggested for "fixing" air-to-ground balance in BF1 reintroducing flag based assets is probably the worst of the bunch.

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

### Quoted from "Watcher-45"

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

### Quoted from "LeGarcon"

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

Salt Miner

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: Mar 19th 2014

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Saturday, April 15th 2017, 1:47am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

The reason the trenchie dominates the META is because killing infantry basically dominates nearly ALL of the game meta because it's really the only way to get high scores.

This is one of the most, if not the most fundamental problem with Planes, more so than any other thing. Why would you actually put work into dogfighting, using the Tank Hunter Plane to fight armour, or use any other harder-to-use or more situational Plane type when the Trench Fighter not only gets you the most points by a large margin, but is also the easiest to use, and is still top-dog vs any opposition you face? It's not only the easiest, but also gives the most points.

Damaging/destroying a vehicle being worth the same as a single foot soldier really needs to be fixed; total-HP-based points instead of percentage-based are a must. When engaging armour and/or other Planes becomes as (or more) attractive as cheesing infantry mobs, then we'll actually see some Plane variety. And we'll also see infantry engaging said Planes.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Up and down. Bounce all around

Posts: 3,100

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: Apr 15th 2013

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Saturday, April 15th 2017, 1:57am

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

Damaging/destroying a vehicle being worth the same as a single foot soldier really needs to be fixed; total-HP-based points instead of percentage-based are a must.
I think a straight HP to score conversion is too hamfisted and bordering on the extreme, but I do support more score for damaging/disabling vehicles.

Currently they are (nearly) treated the same as damaging infantry, which isn't right, but a flat 10x multiplier for AT score is going to over-inflate the assault class (and tank players, who do a lot of AT work).

A medium is needed, but it's important that it doesn't come at the cost of UI clarity (i.e. score feed -> damage done).

^ I'm not saying that 10x isn't good because of "UI clarity", I'm saying that 10x is excessive and that any eventual compromise will have to include changes to UI to preserve clarity.

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

### Quoted from "Watcher-45"

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

### Quoted from "LeGarcon"

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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