Welcome to symthic forums! We would love if you'd register!
You don't have to be expert in bit baking, everyone is more than welcome to join our community.

You are not logged in.

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Posts: 198

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

101

Friday, April 14th 2017, 12:09am

@CaptaPraelium

So, basically, you'd be content if the Stealth Jet had the Attack Jet's weaponry and completely broke BF4's aerial balance, just because it could still be countered by a MAA?


What? No. I didn't say anything of the sort. In fact I'm pretty sure I directly implied the opposite when referring to BF3's insane jet rape (I *think* that was this thread?). Where are you getting this from?

Quoted

Again,


Again? When was the last time?

Quoted

so just how is the semi-imaginary AA truck doing in neutralising the Trench Fighter? Stopping those 107-0s? No, not really.


Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.

Quoted

You can't speculate around the hard evidence. Players' experiences are being severely hampered by the Trench Fighter, so something needs to change.


There's no speculation here. Yep. Something does need to change. They need to start shooting at planes, to begin with. Just because the players experience is hampered, doesn't imply that is the game's fault. Maybe the players are their own enemy in this case. Infy dying to planes is NOT hard evidence of a plane problem.


Giving better anti-infantry capabilities to what's effectively the apex predator of the air is terrible game design for reasons that I've already stated.


And I corrected you when you stated those reasons last time. Making planes strictly air-to-air is bad game design because it's fucking boring. See: BF4 stealth jets, BF1 tail gunner seat.


A vehicle that's literally called a Dogfighter is and should be designed strictly for that purpose


Says who?

You want to stay relevant once you clear the skies? Ditch your vehicle and parachute down


This argument is as retarded as it was the first time I had to tell you it was retarded. It's an unnecessary measure one would only consider if they insist the planes be useless for other purposes, which we have known since BF4 is a bad idea.

lol, nobody is asking for a lone infantry to kill a pilot.


This quote:

Quoted

So should DICE continue letting Trench Fighters go 107-0 with no teamwork because the enemies aren't employing teamwork to counter it themselves?

Revolves around the lack of teamwork required to operate the vehicle and the teamwork required to kill it.

They do however want more encouragement for lone infantry to shoot planes and impede their ability to farm them, rather than the poor carrot and stick system in place.


So they have enough encouragement to cry on every available forum for nerfs, but not enough encouragement to actually counter them in the game with a simple click of the mouse.... That... Makes no sense.

Have you ever stopped to consider why planes aren't shot at enough enough beyond "people are just stupid"?


Yes. The ones that aren't just stupid, are just stubborn and want planes nerfed regardless of whether they're balanced or fun.

Or that people like me and my friends take every opportunity to do so, only for the pilot to zip away and come back 16 seconds later to dart us when we're too busy to look? I can easily do upwards of ~40-60 damage to infantry farming non-Bomber planes who don't bother to evade, as a Medic with the Selb M1916 (another reason why I main that SLR).


Well let's start with the fact that you said "you and your friends" fire on planes, and they come back 16 seconds later.... But you do 40-60HP to the plane solo (1916+aim ftw, GG man!). Why isn't it dead, if there's more than one of you doing that kind of damage? It should be. And, 16 seconds? One repair takes 16 seconds and the plane should have to fly several seconds away from you while still taking fire (so unable to repair) then two repair cycles to unfuck itself from your 1916, and several seconds back. For your 3 seconds or so of fire, you've earned a good 40-50 seconds of reprieve. That's half the time it'd take to respawn if you killed it, and it's taken half the time it would take to kill it. Adds up nicely.

And heck, if you just made one enemy mad, and got too busy doing something else, to finish the fight you started.... you just bit off more than you can chew, and earned a free trip to the spawn screen. This situation is not exclusive to planes.


All that massive damage matters for shit in the end if the pilot easily flies out of range, and there is nobody to follow up.


Well no, because you've successfully countered the plane. It's flown away. That's good.
You've also highlighted why teamwork is important (the "follow up")
Once again I find myself asking, why is nobody presenting these arguments about tanks? They can take a hit, back off and repair, too. Why are planes so special?

Yet, even braindead players in BF4 know to equip MANPADs when someone like me is free farming them with the Little Bird/Attack Helo. Take a gander why that is


Because average BF1 players are even worse than average BF4 players? I mean you've just directly said, BF4 players will use their counters, BF1 players won't. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Pilots don't (really) care about damage, because until they hit 0 and die it doesn't stop them doing what they're doing; it's Disables and other physics/flight-affecting debuffs that stop and deter Planes.


But damage is what gets you there, and good pilots will know after they've taken a fair bit of damage, that they're edging closer to an unexpected wing or engine loss... Sure I mean, actually BEING disabled is far more a deterrent than the fear of an impending disable... But that fear does work.

Infantry weapon damage is decent against Planes, but it's the rarity/difficultly of causing Disables that's the real issue.


Yeh the tricky part is, you don't want people to accidentally randomly disable parts. I'm all for disables/mobility hits/whatever (geez I miss the BF4 tank mobility hits) but I honestly don't have any good ideas to make it more deterministic.

The other issue is points. On top of simply never realistically being able to shoot down a plane yourself, you don't even get anything close to a reasonable reward for attempting it. 20 points? Almost anything else you can possibly do will get you a better reward than that.


Is staying out of the spawn screen not reward enough? I mean people do seem to be troubled by their visits there being so frequent....

Vehicle damage points should be based on raw HP damaged, not percentage; they have 1000 HP. Instead of a terrible 15 points for shooting at a Plane or a standard Rocket Gun hit on a Tank, it would be 150. Fully destroying a vehicle yourself would be 1000, plus the kill/destroy bonus. Doing 75% or more should give an Assist Counts As Destroy as well. Not only would this massively encourage AT and AA participation from Infantry, but it would also encourage Pilots to engage other Planes, or Tanks, instead of farming infantry. You don't even have to nerf the Trench Fighter, and suddenly the AA and AT Planes are far more appealing. This is also especially important considering you need to get both Tanker and Pilot to Rank 10 to unlock all their weapons.


This would be awesome.

Speaking of cool ideas, I missed this one:

On the topic of having planes telegraph their attacks more clearly, maybe the sound of the plane could reach farther in a cone in front of the plane. Then you'd be more likely to hear it when it's relevant, and the pilot retains some control of it.

Posts: 3,138

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

102

Friday, April 14th 2017, 12:49am

Planes, tanks, horses, and bayonet charges all need to be louder, for starters.

C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

(3,320)

Posts: 3,094

Date of registration
: Apr 15th 2013

Platform: PC

Location: Sweden

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

  • Send private message

103

Friday, April 14th 2017, 1:33am

Planes, tanks, horses, and bayonet charges all need to be louder, for starters.
Definitely. For a series that generally prides itself with immersive and good audio, the surround sound and soundwhoring in BF1 is really lacking.

It seems like the sound design was more aimed at a "Michael Bay"-experience with loud guns and explosions for trailers and cool videos rather than something that would actually be good/useful for gameplay.

That said, DICE have taken a step in the right direction with the louder footsteps, so maybe we can reliably hear cavalry, bayonets and vehicles soon. That might be part of the puzzle that will make blueberries shoot at planes more often.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

Posts: 1,601

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

104

Friday, April 14th 2017, 2:40am

Planes, tanks, horses, and bayonet charges all need to be louder, for starters.
Definitely. For a series that generally prides itself with immersive and good audio, the surround sound and soundwhoring in BF1 is really lacking.

It seems like the sound design was more aimed at a "Michael Bay"-experience with loud guns and explosions for trailers and cool videos rather than something that would actually be good/useful for gameplay.

That said, DICE have taken a step in the right direction with the louder footsteps, so maybe we can reliably hear cavalry, bayonets and vehicles soon. That might be part of the puzzle that will make blueberries shoot at planes more often.
I honestly think the sounds are broken in BF1. Tanks, and stuff are actually really quite loud but they don't seem to reliably reach third party players. It's not a volume thing it's a propagation issue.

Explosions and gunfire should be loud as fuck though, because they are exceptionally loud. It's not a Michael Bay experience, it's authentic.

But there is no in-between. Not even the sounds of gunfire or explosions really carry to any amazing degree reliably in BF1.

Posts: 34

Date of registration
: Dec 14th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: UK

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

  • Send private message

105

Friday, April 14th 2017, 2:44am

What? No. I didn't say anything of the sort. In fact I'm pretty sure I directly implied the opposite when referring to BF3's insane jet rape (I *think* that was this thread?). Where are you getting this from?


You seem to have no issue with the Trench Fighter when it's comparable to a Stealth Jet with Attack Jet weaponry, just because, seemingly, there is a theoretical way a coordinated infantry attack can counter it. You don't seem to even care that it completely breaks plane balance.


Again? When was the last time?


The last time you were justifying your argument with fanciful, hypothetical suggestions can be seen above. Even if an AA Truck is allowed (see Fao Fortress Defence on Ops for otherwise), a player would need to wait around during the spawn screen and eventually use up their valuable tank slot to try and swat this bloody mosquito that dominates everything but tanks. In chess, that would be like using a Pawn to pin down a Rook (using your Plane slot to neutralise the enemy's superior Tank slot).



Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.


A Tank driver of similar skill would still be in their proper Tank continuing to PTFO if we were to play it out. They wouldn't switch to the AA Truck for the entire game just to deal with a single "Fighter" pilot who would keep spawning back in at every opportunity.

Posts: 198

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

106

Friday, April 14th 2017, 3:49am


You seem to have no issue with the Trench Fighter when it's comparable to a Stealth Jet with Attack Jet weaponry, just because, seemingly, there is a theoretical way a coordinated infantry attack can counter it. You don't seem to even care that it completely breaks plane balance.

That's not even close to my stance. I've no idea where you're getting this from.
Trench fighter has no weaponry similar to the attack jet. No heavy cannon with splash, no heavy bombs for armour, so firstly they aren't comparable at all. The attack plane has similar cannon, and bomber similar bombs. Trench fighter has neither.
The coordinated attack is not seeming or theoretical, I practice it every time I play. It works.
I certainly care about plane balance, because I want the other planes to not suck like they do right now, and I want them to be more challenging to fly. What part of my extensive participation in this thread gave you an impression that I don't care? LOL dude you're making NO sense.


The last time you were justifying your argument with fanciful, hypothetical suggestions can be seen above.

Your "again" was a part of your question:
Again, so just how is the semi-imaginary AA truck doing in neutralising the Trench Fighter?
You said "again,....." as if you'd asked me this previously, but you had not. Not even sure what you're trying to imply with the "semi-imaginary". MAA does exist in the game.


Even if an AA Truck is allowed (see Fao Fortress Defence on Ops for otherwise), a player would need to wait around during the spawn screen and eventually use up their valuable tank slot to try and swat this bloody mosquito that dominates everything but tanks. In chess, that would be like using a Pawn to pin down a Rook (using your Plane slot to neutralise the enemy's superior Tank slot).

Sounds good. Enemy waits in spawn screen for his vehicle of choice, so do you. Balance. Excellent. Not sure what point you're trying to make here.



Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.

A Tank driver of similar skill would still be in their proper Tank continuing to PTFO if we were to play it out. They wouldn't switch to the AA Truck for the entire game just to deal with a single "Fighter" pilot who would keep spawning back in at every opportunity.


Wait, you're talking AA, so I point out the flaw in your logic (assuming unbalanced opponents when comparing vehicle balance) and now we're not talking about AA any more? You asked how AA does against fighters, I answered. It does just fine.

Dude you're really not making a lot of sense.

Posts: 3,138

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

107

Friday, April 14th 2017, 4:12am

The Trench Fighter really isn't too good, it's about where it should be. The lacklustre state of other Planes, especially the other two Fighters, and the lack of incentive (Disables, points, being more obvious like with audio) among other factors make the Trench Fighter the go-to choice.

Maybe the Trench Fighter should lose a bit more accuracy/spread than it currently does the higher you go (forcing a low-flying playstyle), but otherwise it really shouldn't be changed, or we'll just have even fewer viable Planes to choose from. The AA and AT Planes are almost all in need of some love.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (Apr 14th 2017, 4:21am)


Posts: 3,138

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Canada

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

108

Friday, April 14th 2017, 5:51am

The current CTE build (patch notes) is also going to be the April Patch, so we'll be getting some Trench Fighter nerfs in that.

And a whole list of other changes too of course, this patch looks to be fantastic.

Posts: 1,601

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

109

Friday, April 14th 2017, 7:58am


Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.


A Tank driver of similar skill would still be in their proper Tank continuing to PTFO if we were to play it out. They wouldn't switch to the AA Truck for the entire game just to deal with a single "Fighter" pilot who would keep spawning back in at every opportunity.
More importantly, a tank driver of similar skill switching over to camp the AA truck is actively hurting the team relative to just maining an actually useful tank.

Trenchies are annoying but they don't have a tremendous impact on the round. They generally kill at a lower rate than solo tanks, and they cannot contest flags, hold flags, or provide a spawn point.

The AA truck's place in the current meta is absolute garbage because it means trading what is often your ONLY tank slot for a vehicle that strictly speaking doesn't really do shit.

Posts: 198

Date of registration
: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

  • Send private message

110

Friday, April 14th 2017, 10:17am


Why not? It should be. It can. Maybe the driver sucks and the pilot is obviously good. Remember, this is a balance discussion so we should assume players of equal skill. If the pilot is an ace going 107-0, the hypothetical AA driver is equally good and should be putting that score to bed.


A Tank driver of similar skill would still be in their proper Tank continuing to PTFO if we were to play it out. They wouldn't switch to the AA Truck for the entire game just to deal with a single "Fighter" pilot who would keep spawning back in at every opportunity.
More importantly, a tank driver of similar skill switching over to camp the AA truck is actively hurting the team relative to just maining an actually useful tank.

Trenchies are annoying but they don't have a tremendous impact on the round. They generally kill at a lower rate than solo tanks, and they cannot contest flags, hold flags, or provide a spawn point.

The AA truck's place in the current meta is absolute garbage because it means trading what is often your ONLY tank slot for a vehicle that strictly speaking doesn't really do shit.


If you look at the thread, you'll notice that the reason we were discussing AA, was because I was prompted for a one-man counter for one-man fighters, and AA was one I listed. Then was asked whether it works in that role. Of course, the answer is that it does. Other roles like capping flags or being a spawn point were not the topic of discussion (although I did also list tank hunter landship which can perform all of those roles). The point was not to discuss tanks, the point was to list one-man counters for one-man planes. This all revolves around Shalan's complaint that the fighter didn't need to use teamwork to perform well, but teamwork would be needed to kill that fighter. I was pointing out that teamwork is only required to counter an enemy using a force multiplier (the plane) if the enemy are not using a similar force multiplier (such as a vehicle or elite kit)

I doubt it would be productive to bring tank balance discussion into this thread.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "CaptaPraelium" (Apr 14th 2017, 10:23am)