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Posts: 776

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: Dec 3rd 2014

Platform: PS4

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91

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 4:22pm

Maybe they could merge the AA and Mortar trucks together, and improve the power of the mortars against tanks a bit. That way it wouldn't be such a wasted slot. It could PTFO with the mortars (mainly on rush/ operations) and could help take out enemy AA. Right now both these vehicles are too weak to make up for a lost tank, and there's no way dice will take my old suggestion of making the mortar truck more of an arty truck firing tank-equivalent rounds indirectly (but suffering the mobility/ armour loss of being a truck, not a tank).

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: Sep 20th 2016

Platform: PC

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92

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 4:48pm


When I'm playing as an infantryman is it my job to make sure the exact location of every potential air threat or to even destroy them?


Absolutely yes. It's everyone's job. That's the idea of teamwork. Maybe the friendly plane is busy providing air support to you? Maybe the MAA is busy running from a heavy tank right now. Yes, it's your job. It's everyone's job.

Quoted

As an infantryman my priority is ground pounding that means taking out opposing ground targets and focusing on ground-based objectives.


Only takes a moment to look up and spot. If your focus is on ground exclusively then you are suffering from tunnel vision and can expect air to poop on you... and you won't be helping on the ground, when you're in the killcam watching a plane fly away, and you're not going to improve that situation by sitting in the spawn screen afterwards blaming the plane when you failed to even consider it.

Quoted

Infantry have enough things to worry about on the ground, throw in a plane or two into the mix and now the attention you divert to focus on the air will likely put you in a bad situation on the ground


Infy failing to manage their engagements is not a plane's fault.

Quoted

where a vast majority of the threats actually are.


Wait a minute are you saying planes aren't a threat? Why are we discussing how OP they are? Because they ARE a threat and that's why you shouldn't get a stiff neck and refuse to look up or you're just crippling your infy game.

Quoted

Notice the exaggeration on the word 'ground' here. While infantry have tools available to them to deter planes it isn't their job, not by a long shot; there is no dedicated class or tool that infantry spawn in with that directly hard counters planes. There are only vehicles and stationary AAs.


Just because infy aren't the direct hard counter doesn't mean their contribution to the battle should be zero. They still have a very effective counter and failing to use it is their own failure. And as I've pointed out, infy have FAR more than the capability to deter aircraft, they have the capability to outright destroy them, and quickly.

Quoted

Another thing. It has nothing to do with rewarding poor situational awareness at all, seeing as how I shouldn't have to constantly look up for fear of being insta-gibbed by a stupid plane to begin with


Says who? I mean we can apply this same argument to infy ("I shouldn't have to constantly look left and right for fear of being shot by stupid infy to begin with") and it's retarded so why planes?

Quoted

I liken it, among others, to active spotting. It's a "click tax" as some would put it. Passive spotting should be the only the necessary action to spot, which is tracking your target for a couple seconds to initiate a full spot instead of mashing the spot button constantly until the game finally recognizes you're trying to spot someone. Competent players know how to spot and the importance of spotting, so if they're going to do it anyway why force them to engage in another click/press to initiate the full functionality of it?


Always been a big fan of passive spotting concepts I've heard around here. Wish dice would get on board already.........

Quoted

I use the same thought process for planes: competent players are going to be wary of their surroundings anyway, so why force them to look about the sky aimlessly while also putting themselves at a disadvantage to potential ground threats? Rather, institute a system that already does that for you, so you don't have to waste time doing it yourself.


Heck, why not just automate the whole game and just watch it like a movie? Passive spotting at least requires you to actively look at the target. What you're talking about is not comparable. Besides why not apply the same argument to infy? I mean there could be a guy just waiting around that corner with a shotgun, he might surprise and instagib you, that would suck, let's autospot all infy.......................... Ahhh. no. Check your corners, and check the sky. Just like the planes have to check the entire map constantly. Should we auto-spot MAA so planes don't get surprised? How about we auto-spot mines for tanks? Dying by surprise sucks and it's not anyone else's fault.

Quoted

Okay smartass, how about when FoV is blocked by trees or buildings, if inside of a structure,


Nope. One of their teammates can take care of it. Of course, this requires them to ditch the "it's not my job" excuse that you've used above. Now do you see why it's everyone's job? Because not everyone can do it all the time. But this:

Quoted

when in the midst of fighting shit on the ground.


Is just an excuse for poor situational awareness and engagement control. If you start a fight with a bunch of infy right before a plane is going to bomb that spot, you dun goofed. Shoulda dealt with the plane first....
I mean, if you're in the midst of fighting shit on the ground, and a tank approaches, do you just ignore it and say hey not my problem? Hell no, you play your role, you flare, you spot, you K-bullet, you drop ammo, launch mortars, fire rockets, revive assaults, etc etc. I mean medic doesn't really have much in the way of damage that it can deal to tanks (noob toobs do not count hehehe) but they can still play their role. Similarly, assault players can't do much to planes but they are sure well equipped to stave off enemy ground forces so that the snipers can wreck that camel uninterrupted. Everyone has a role they can play, either directly or supporting. EVERYONE. EVEN YOU.

Quoted

Unfortunately minimap scaling is horrible on console, so if I set my map range beyond 100m I have to increase the size of the map itself in order to take advantage of the extra range which takes up like an eighth of my screen space. The messed up part about it is that the minimap hides 3D icons behind it regardless of the opacity, so increasing the size is a huge detriment.


So nerf planes? No, fix the UI.... Which sucks on PC too BTW, I feel your pain.

But seriously, it makes ZERO sense that everyone is OK with looking in any direction for any other enemy, but if it's a plane.......WAYYY too hard. Wut?!

Posts: 72

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: Dec 14th 2016

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93

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 5:22pm

@CaptaPraelium

It's all well and good theorising how teams COULD deal with enemy planes, but we're all well aware that that's not going to happen. Just like a dozen scouts aren't going to unleash a stream of K-bullets at enemy tanks and destroy them all in a matter of seconds.

So should DICE continue letting Trench Fighters go 107-0 with no teamwork because the enemies aren't employing teamwork to counter it themselves?

Posts: 419

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: Mar 25th 2014

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94

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 5:56pm

Maybe they could merge the AA and Mortar trucks together, and improve the power of the mortars against tanks a bit. That way it wouldn't be such a wasted slot. It could PTFO with the mortars (mainly on rush/ operations) and could help take out enemy AA. Right now both these vehicles are too weak to make up for a lost tank, and there's no way dice will take my old suggestion of making the mortar truck more of an arty truck firing tank-equivalent rounds indirectly (but suffering the mobility/ armour loss of being a truck, not a tank).
What's real funny is that the mortar truck actually does less damage against tanks than the normal support mortar. It's crazy.
RIP Sraw

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: Sep 20th 2016

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95

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 7:46pm

@CaptaPraelium

It's all well and good theorising how teams COULD deal with enemy planes, but we're all well aware that that's not going to happen. Just like a dozen scouts aren't going to unleash a stream of K-bullets at enemy tanks and destroy them all in a matter of seconds.

So should DICE continue letting Trench Fighters go 107-0 with no teamwork because the enemies aren't employing teamwork to counter it themselves?


Yes. Because if they balance the planes around a lack of teamwork, they'd be completely crushed if any teamwork was employed. Bad players who don't use counters (including teamwork) can expect to be 1 out of those 107.... or probably 3 of them ;)
You've also implied that the pilot is getting those kills without teamwork, so killing the pilot should also occur without teamwork... Which it easily will, if the pilot's opposition take a similar force multiplier (other plane, MAA, TH landship, TH elite kit, etc)

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: Mar 19th 2014

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96

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 8:20pm

@CaptaPraelium

While I'm in agreement with CaptaPraelium on most of this, everyone needs to keep in mind that DICE designs and balances the game assuming no text chat and no voice chat, and this has been explicitly stated.

Keeping in mind what coordinated players can do is important, but ultimately only for ensuring it's not too broken. Use of text/voice comms doesn't factor into game design/balance.
Who has fun, wins.

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: Dec 14th 2016

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97

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 8:25pm

@CaptaPraelium

So, basically, you'd be content if the Stealth Jet had the Attack Jet's weaponry and completely broke BF4's aerial balance, just because it could still be countered by a MAA?

Again, so just how is the semi-imaginary AA truck doing in neutralising the Trench Fighter? Stopping those 107-0s? No, not really. You can't speculate around the hard evidence. Players' experiences are being severely hampered by the Trench Fighter, so something needs to change.

Posts: 266

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: Dec 2nd 2013

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98

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 8:27pm

Or make the tool more useful so that it's not a one-trick-pony that should only be used with imminent suicide in your battle plan. I mean.... Obviously you're serious but... Are you serious? LOL

Giving better anti-infantry capabilities to what's effectively the apex predator of the air is terrible game design for reasons that I've already stated. A vehicle that's literally called a Dogfighter is and should be designed strictly for that purpose, yet you're asking for a greater impact on the ground game while simultaneously being the strongest in the air. The ONLY thing that should be allowed on a Dogfighter to help his team on the ground is spotting flares, but that would only serve to devalue the Trench Fighter even more


You want to stay relevant once you clear the skies? Ditch your vehicle and parachute down, or take the Trench Fighter next time. I know this sounds like asking a lot from you, but it's really not a difficult choice :whistling:


Quoted

You've also implied that the pilot is getting those kills without teamwork, so killing the pilot should also occur without teamwork...


lol, nobody is asking for a lone infantry to kill a pilot. They do however want more encouragement for lone infantry to shoot planes and impede their ability to farm them, rather than the poor carrot and stick system in place.

Have you ever stopped to consider why planes aren't shot at enough enough beyond "people are just stupid"? Or that people like me and my friends take every opportunity to do so, only for the pilot to zip away and come back 16 seconds later to dart us when we're too busy to look? I can easily do upwards of ~40-60 damage to infantry farming non-Bomber planes who don't bother to evade, as a Medic with the Selb M1916 (another reason why I main that SLR). All that massive damage matters for shit in the end if the pilot easily flies out of range, and there is nobody to follow up. Yet, even braindead players in BF4 know to equip MANPADs when someone like me is free farming them with the Little Bird/Attack Helo. Take a gander why that is

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Ritobasu" (Apr 13th 2017, 8:40pm)


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: Mar 19th 2014

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99

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:00pm

Pilots don't (really) care about damage, because until they hit 0 and die it doesn't stop them doing what they're doing; it's Disables and other physics/flight-affecting debuffs that stop and deter Planes. Infantry weapon damage is decent against Planes, but it's the rarity/difficultly of causing Disables that's the real issue.

The other issue is points. On top of simply never realistically being able to shoot down a plane yourself, you don't even get anything close to a reasonable reward for attempting it. 20 points? Almost anything else you can possibly do will get you a better reward than that.


Vehicle damage points should be based on raw HP damaged, not percentage; they have 1000 HP. Instead of a terrible 15 points for shooting at a Plane or a standard Rocket Gun hit on a Tank, it would be 150. Fully destroying a vehicle yourself would be 1000, plus the kill/destroy bonus. Doing 75% or more should give an Assist Counts As Destroy as well. Not only would this massively encourage AT and AA participation from Infantry, but it would also encourage Pilots to engage other Planes, or Tanks, instead of farming infantry. You don't even have to nerf the Trench Fighter, and suddenly the AA and AT Planes are far more appealing. This is also especially important considering you need to get both Tanker and Pilot to Rank 10 to unlock all their weapons.
Who has fun, wins.

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: Dec 3rd 2014

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100

Thursday, April 13th 2017, 10:18pm

Pilots don't (really) care about damage, because until they hit 0 and die it doesn't stop them doing what they're doing; it's Disables and other physics/flight-affecting debuffs that stop and deter Planes. Infantry weapon damage is decent against Planes, but it's the rarity/difficultly of causing Disables that's the real issue.

The other issue is points. On top of simply never realistically being able to shoot down a plane yourself, you don't even get anything close to a reasonable reward for attempting it. 20 points? Almost anything else you can possibly do will get you a better reward than that.


Vehicle damage points should be based on raw HP damaged, not percentage; they have 1000 HP. Instead of a terrible 15 points for shooting at a Plane or a standard Rocket Gun hit on a Tank, it would be 150. Fully destroying a vehicle yourself would be 1000, plus the kill/destroy bonus. Doing 75% or more should give an Assist Counts As Destroy as well. Not only would this massively encourage AT and AA participation from Infantry, but it would also encourage Pilots to engage other Planes, or Tanks, instead of farming infantry. You don't even have to nerf the Trench Fighter, and suddenly the AA and AT Planes are far more appealing. This is also especially important considering you need to get both Tanker and Pilot to Rank 10 to unlock all their weapons.


While I don't think this should be the case for normal tanks since it would mean assaults would dominate the scoreboard, I think it should apply to behemoths. When you practically solo a train with a field gun, an airship with an HMG or a dreadnought with a Fortress gun, it sucks to be getting around 20-30 points per hit. Considering the danger of attacking these vehicles, it sucks that there is no destroy assist. The 1000 points should really be split amongst players according the percentage of damage done.