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C0llis

Up and down. Bounce all around

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11

Friday, March 17th 2017, 10:58am

I'm still trying to understand why dying to grenades is a problem.

Dying to grenades isn't a problem in itself. There are currently two problems with grenades:

1: spam in chokepoints. This is mainly map and resupply dependent and what the resent changes have sought to address.

2: "spam" in engagements. Or rather, commodification of grenades. They are thrown so quickly, blow up so quickly after landing, and are currently available for most of your engagements so grenades have effectively become free DPS. This is a power creep and it's not very fun to have to dodge one grenade almost every engagement. Not to mention that many engagements now routinely involving the exchange of grenades feels extremely silly.



One other "problem" that I haven't seen anyone mention: you don't actually need grenades. You could remove them and the game would still largely work the same way. You couldn't do the same with many of the ammo based gadgets, say, the rocket gun. You don't actually_need_ to have grenades avaliable multiple times every life, even when support players aren't around.

If any thing were to be given ammo regen it should be gadgets, like k-bullets and the rocket gun, which players need to cope with the game (vehicles). We already have it for boxes and revives - as it should be, but not for vital AT gadgets? You don't really need grenades to be able to deal with anything, they just make it easier.

I don't mind magical auto-resupplying grenades, but likewise I wouldn't mind if they only came back through ammo crates/pouches, since they aren't vital gear.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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12

Friday, March 17th 2017, 11:04am

Headless chickens will keep running and dying ftw. For what it's worth now they are less vulnerable, as they will hide beneath a rock instead of sitting by a crate the support guy conveniently placed by them. Not that their presence is relevant in the grand schematics, but stuff compounds when campers of all colors of the rainbow get grenades for free resulting in Chinese new year all day long.

I say cut the blast sphere/damage potential. Watch what happens. I don't particularly like auto-resupply. To me bf4 has it perfect. You can't resupply grenades (well you can, but you won't), so every one of them is golden, while you're alive. You learn to economize, prioritize, pick up other's gear to use their grenades. It isn't hard to understand where they come from with arcadey auto resupply... but yeah, it's a small issue, comparing to how strong they actually are.

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13

Friday, March 17th 2017, 12:14pm

The absurd throw speeds and dumb impact-based timers are far more significant issues than the resupply stuff everyone wants to talk/rant about.

The subject of this thread was the 'spam' issue which I still retain isn't really an issue unless one fancies the 'cluster-fuck.' The attributes of the grenades themselves are irrelevant to this discussion, but since it has already been derailed into that, we may as well include it now.

The thing with frags is that they detonate within a short time after their momentum stops, so the fuse varies depending on the angle of which it is thrown at. BF4's frag just detonates after its time to live expires (which is 3s). BF1's frag TTL is 8s, which will NEVER expire, combined with the near instant detonation once completely stopped. The max angle you can throw a BF4 frag is 55° for it to detonate once hitting the ground because that's when the 3s is up. With a much longer time to live of 8s, BF1's frag can be easily thrown at >55° - 90° and still have plenty of TTL meaning you can throw it straight up and it will hit the ground before expiring. Also, when throwing at an angle off of higher elevation it will still manage to hit the ground. I don't think the higher TTL is a bad thing, but the fuse time after stopping could definitely be increased. Unfortunately I don't know what that time is or how to find it in the files, so I cannot provide a suggestion.

Surprisingly, BF4's frag does 112 blast damage within 1.5m and BF1's does 100 blast damage within 1.75m; both have a max radius of 7m, so strictly referring to damage potential BF4's frag is better. It's just that there is ample time to escape a BF4 frag when it's thrown relatively close up, but if that same frag is thrown at you from 40m away at a 45° angle and lands at your feet you'll die no question.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.
For 'skill cannons,' that is.

Nope, Aim Assist or bust.

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Mar 17th 2017, 2:19pm)


Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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14

Friday, March 17th 2017, 1:39pm

Before the patch, as a Support player, you could literally get a grenade every 6 seconds. I ended up adapting my playstyle after I discovered this - every time I threw a grenade, I would immediately throw an ammo pouch at my feet, starting the grenade resupply instantly. It got to the point where I was so used to doing this that I would try to do the same thing as classes other than Support. If anyone wants to talk about grenade spam, pre-patch grenade spam was absolutely ludicrous.

The new patch has most definitely reduced the grenade spam when using the Support class. This is not up for debate.


For other classes? Probably not so much. Sure, you could argue that technically, grenade spam for other classes has been reduced, but in practice, since you don't have a constant self-provided source of ammo, and teammates are generally bad, I'd say the frequency of grenade usage both pre-patch and post-patch are about the same. Of course, this becomes less and less accurate the better and more aware your teammates are, but good luck finding those teammates.

I, therefore, do also agree that some change needs to be made about this.





However, I also think that the amount of community whining is just that - whining. No one likes being killed by a grenade, just as no one likes being killed by a shotgun or sniper rifle. But this does not mean that grenades have become eve more "spammable" or "overpowered," because, the statistics (both theoretically and the DICE telemetry) say otherwise. My overwhelming observation is that the new auto regen system is simply being scapegoated by whiny people who honestly, just need to git gud and deal with it. I imagine that a good number of these people would actually not even care, or perhaps even be happy, if grenades were removed altogether.

IMO, this is quite a stupid and narrow-minded perspective on the whole matter. BF is evidently evolving to incorporate more alternative methods of gameplay. DICE are not idiots or incompetent, as the telemetry shows that their changes have clearly worked (to some degree). Instead, it is just you being arrogant, stubborn, or clinging onto nostalgia. You can either deal with it and accept it, or move on and leave.


Spoiler Spoiler

Holy crap, I've been reading way too much Cicero lately.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (Mar 17th 2017, 1:49pm)


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15

Friday, March 17th 2017, 2:32pm

Before the patch, as a Support player, you could literally get a grenade every 6 seconds. I ended up adapting my playstyle after I discovered this - every time I threw a grenade, I would immediately throw an ammo pouch at my feet, starting the grenade resupply instantly. It got to the point where I was so used to doing this that I would try to do the same thing as classes other than Support. If anyone wants to talk about grenade spam, pre-patch grenade spam was absolutely ludicrous.

The new patch has most definitely reduced the grenade spam when using the Support class. This is not up for debate.


For other classes? Probably not so much. Sure, you could argue that technically, grenade spam for other classes has been reduced, but in practice, since you don't have a constant self-provided source of ammo, and teammates are generally bad, I'd say the frequency of grenade usage both pre-patch and post-patch are about the same. Of course, this becomes less and less accurate the better and more aware your teammates are, but good luck finding those teammates.

I, therefore, do also agree that some change needs to be made about this.





However, I also think that the amount of community whining is just that - whining. No one likes being killed by a grenade, just as no one likes being killed by a shotgun or sniper rifle. But this does not mean that grenades have become eve more "spammable" or "overpowered," because, the statistics (both theoretically and the DICE telemetry) say otherwise. My overwhelming observation is that the new auto regen system is simply being scapegoated by whiny people who honestly, just need to git gud and deal with it. I imagine that a good number of these people would actually not even care, or perhaps even be happy, if grenades were removed altogether.

IMO, this is quite a stupid and narrow-minded perspective on the whole matter. BF is evidently evolving to incorporate more alternative methods of gameplay. DICE are not idiots or incompetent, as the telemetry shows that their changes have clearly worked (to some degree). Instead, it is just you being arrogant, stubborn, or clinging onto nostalgia. You can either deal with it and accept it, or move on and leave.


Spoiler Spoiler

Holy crap, I've been reading way too much Cicero lately.
Battlefield has turned into pure salt. Salt about how you should die what should kill you. Salt about armor. Salt about planes.

From a philosophical perspective I don't like the ability to deploy things from a hot button. Neither melee or grenade or gadget. From the classic FPS perspective you're supposed to be representing the fact that you've got all this gear and you're rotating through it. It has never been terribly realistic, with few exceptions, but the core idea is that you have to fiddle with something on your character's person, bring it to the ready and then deploy it.

To me that's best done with two input keys and readying/draw time. Hotkeying, and the ability to panic deploy stuff sort of waters down the tactical concerns of how/when you can do something.

Now whatever, you adapt to this making tossing grenades mid fight more viable, and stabbing people in the middle of a gunfight, but I'm overall not crazy about the outcome of this stuff.

Other than perma locking chokepoints and without alternative routes to bypass the spam, I really have no problem with grens. And as I keep saying that's a map design failure.

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Friday, March 17th 2017, 9:11pm

It is not salt for everyone. Currently, dying to grenades is not equivalent of dying to a shotgun or sniper rifle, which work as intended. For many it is how fun this game is to play compared to the previous Battlefield titles. I've seen over and over people in these forums saying that BF1 is designed with a superior system, and they might be right, but I also see many people saying it is just less fun to play. I am one of them. I want to like it, but there are too many factors that make the game less fun. The state of grenades is one of them. Why should I invest hundreds of hours trying to improve my infantry game play when a 6 year old can instantly toss a frag at my feet that is inescapable? As someone else said, grenades used to be golden. They took so long to resupply that you got one per life in effect. And if you were cornered by one you got outplayed. Now, they are plentiful, throw instantly, are incredibly difficult to escape, and take little effort to use. Add in the shitty spotting mechanic performance and poor map design and the entire game is just much less fun to play than previous titles.

Here's an idea, why not fix the detonation timer, throw speed, and then let everyone carry one lethal and possibly one utility grenade? Match the long resupply times of BF4, or put both on reasonable persistent timers. There are plenty of other explosives available in the game. Why do we need constant access to grenades? Limiting availability of grenades enhances the appeal of other explosive options. Let's promote variety instead.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "hxsolo" (Mar 17th 2017, 10:36pm)


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Friday, March 17th 2017, 11:06pm

From a philosophical perspective I don't like the ability to deploy things from a hot button. Neither melee or grenade or gadget.

This is something that console has done since BF3. One press of a single button to melee and one to toss a nade. I have never needed to press a button to deploy a nade and press it again to throw it, so it's really no different in BF1 for me concerning the deploy speeds of melee and grenades.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.
For 'skill cannons,' that is.

Nope, Aim Assist or bust.

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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18

Friday, March 17th 2017, 11:24pm

The subject of this thread was the 'spam' issue which I still retain isn't really an issue unless one fancies the 'cluster-fuck.' The attributes of the grenades themselves are irrelevant to this discussion, but since it has already been derailed into that, we may as well include it now.



@JSLICE20

I think attributes of grenades do lead to grenade spam because how fast you could get it out. In BF4 you need to pull the fuse and I definitely needed to think twice before clicking the grenade button because if the enemy rushed me I would be dead. In BF1 the throw time is so short that the enemy literally does not have enough time to rush you before you finish throwing the grenade and have your weapon ready again. There are fewer windows of opportunity for you to get a grenade out in BF4. So far this has been my experience.

For other classes? Probably not so much. Sure, you could argue that technically, grenade spam for other classes has been reduced, but in practice, since you don't have a constant self-provided source of ammo, and teammates are generally bad, I'd say the frequency of grenade usage both pre-patch and post-patch are about the same. Of course, this becomes less and less accurate the better and more aware your teammates are, but good luck finding those teammates.



@Zer0Cod3x

Again, from my experience post-patch, I find that I get more grenades when I am not playing support. Anecdotal evidence: I was playing Empire as medic and about to attack C. I saw red dots on the minimap so I chuck my impact in there. Then I would do some medic things aka shooting, dancing around rocks, reviving, healing, look around spotting people from D. Then after I got on C point I would occupy a tactical location to prepare for incoming defenders. When the defenders were here, ah-ha I got another grenade.

I have quite a few similar experience across different maps post-patch, not playing support. Pre-patch I would not have a grenade available. I am not saying we should go back to pre-patch, because that was way worse. But I think timers should be increased even more. And in compensation I think we should be able to carry more than 1. Most obvious use case is smoke.


2: "spam" in engagements. Or rather, commodification of grenades. They are thrown so quickly, blow up so quickly after landing, and are currently available for most of your engagements so grenades have effectively become free DPS. This is a power creep and it's not very fun to have to dodge one grenade almost every engagement. Not to mention that many engagements now routinely involving the exchange of grenades feels extremely silly.



@C0llis

Exactly how I feel. I have no problem dying to a grenade when I am cornered. The problem is that a significant part of gameplay has turned into dodge-grenade.

One other "problem" that I haven't seen anyone mention: you don't actually need grenades. You could remove them and the game would still largely work the same way. You couldn't do the same with many of the ammo based gadgets, say, the rocket gun. You don't actually_need_ to have grenades avaliable multiple times every life, even when support players aren't around.


I cannot live without smoke grenades, especially as assault.

If any thing were to be given ammo regen it should be gadgets, like k-bullets and the rocket gun, which players need to cope with the game (vehicles). We already have it for boxes and revives - as it should be, but not for vital AT gadgets? You don't really need grenades to be able to deal with anything, they just make it easier.
Does the little pouch still give you gadgets like rocket gun ammo, big AT grenades, rifle grenades and cross bow grenades?

VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Saturday, March 18th 2017, 12:11am

I do not see why we need passive regen at all. Even in a game like BF4 where you would have up to 8 armored targets per team, you did not need more rockets, or specifically more rockets constantly. Oh yeah the concept is radical and new but I do not see the need of it, and some resources are supposed to be scarce.

Also the game should be about choices, so choices if you use your AT gadget against infantry and maybe have too few to deal with armour. Or if you throw you grenade now, and are at a disadvantage in a later engagement. It requires thinking. Passive regen just supports careless actions and irrelevance of decisions.

Of course people are upset, DICE presented a solution to a problem that does not deal with the cause, they just try to treat the symptoms, with little effect. Grenades get thrown everywhere for a multitude of reasons, mostly because it is so darn fast, the maps are made for it and they have no drawbacks.
Heck people can not even decide on the definition of spam. I get grenades shoved in my face now on every engagement I have. Is that spam? Is it spam when three grenades fly into Verdun point B? But how else are you supposed to get rid of people in a bunker? When additionally to grenades, mortar shells, rocket guns and every other gadget gets shoved in your face as well, does that contribute to spam? Or maybe they should invest in some maps where the use of explosives against infantry does not prove as worthwhile...

Honestly with the new ammo initiative, it seems that their major issue is not dealing with spam, but radically changing the way the classes interact with each other. Self-dependency over relying on your teammates. I find that alarming, BF thrives on team interaction, I do not think lonewolfing should be a major part of the game design. But that is just me, I am conservative.

NoctyrneSAGA

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20

Saturday, March 18th 2017, 12:21am

You make it sound as though players have bottomless magazines even though it is clearly not the case.

The cost of expending a shot of your ATRG on infantry is X amount of seconds where you are unable to fire it at a tank.

That is plenty of decision-making. More than "I have a few limited shots, I better make sure I only use it on vehicles."

As for self-dependence, would you rather 49s without a grenade or 14s?
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.