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11

Friday, March 3rd 2017, 3:34am

The Mle 1903 is actually as amazing as I've always felt it was, all is right with the world. I find it interesting that the Mle and Rem 8 .35 were two of the first guns I really got attached to soon after release, despite mostly not looking at hard stats so I could figure all the guns out for myself. They also remain my top primary and secondary weapons.
Who has fun, wins.

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12

Friday, March 3rd 2017, 1:46pm

Gasser Baby

Something this doesn't take into account is that the Gasser does 50 damage at 22 meters :love: making it an amazing 'sniper' pistol for assault

would have liked to have seen the auto revolver higher but i know its limits

Gecko99

thank mr skeltal

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13

Friday, March 3rd 2017, 7:23pm

I really like the Steyr, the 360 RPM, P08 damage model and somewhat fast draw time makes it a favorite of mine.
Autoloading 8 .25 extended user.

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14

Friday, March 3rd 2017, 8:25pm

Something this doesn't take into account is that the Gasser does 50 damage at 22 meters :love: making it an amazing 'sniper' pistol for assault

I "race" them to 200dmg, by shooting 4RB and then pausing to recover. So the Gasser's 52.22dmg per hit vs. the Mle's 21.672dmg per hit at 20m is taken into account.

Expected damage per 4RB, 20m ADS - Not Moving: Gasser - 140.5907572 vs. Mle M1903 - 80.55781474.

As you can see, despite the 2.4x more damaging bullet, the Gasser can only manage ~1.75x more damage output. 2 reasons: 2x Spread Increase Per Shot, and 6.67x H-Recoil, the latter of which is absolutely insane,

Then, when you roll Rate of Fire into the mix (which the Mle is 2x faster), you will see that the Gasser takes 2s to reach the 200dmg target. In comparison, the Mle only takes 1.666666667s. So the Gasser is already slower to kill.

After doing that, you have to Reload... and you probably already know that the Gasser is a gate-loaded revolver, so the Reload Time will be ridiculously bad. I have it doing so in 8.5s, vs. the Mle's 4.7s... the latter of which is bad amongst detachable magazine pistols, but is still 1.81x quicker.

Finally, V-Recoil you have to go through to achieve that 200dmg target. The Gasser at 6deg per shot (highest in game? I think highest in game) is 5.45x higher than the Mle. Its high damage per hit does mean you don't have to shoot as many rounds with it, so it's not the worst V-Recoil Score at this range (Howdah > No. 3 > Auto Revolver > Bulldog / Bodeo > Gasser > Mars), but it's still plenty bad. The Gasser needs 36deg, while the Mle needs just 11deg.

So, when you add everything together....

Deploy Score: Mle M1903 - 88.88888889 vs. Gasser M1870 - 61.53846154

Firing Score: Mle M1903 - 100 vs. Gasser M1870 - 83.33333333

Recovery Score: Mle M1903 - 60 vs. Gasser M1870 - 100

Reload Score: Mle M1903 - 45.31914894 vs. Gasser M1870 - 25.05882353

V-Recoil Score: Mle M1903 - 100 vs. Gasser M1870 - 30.55555556

Velocity Score: Mle M1903 - 66.03773585 vs. Gasser M1870 - 43.39622642

-----

Anyways, revolvers are weird, and I admit that maybe this is not the "best" way to represent them. Still, 6.67x H-Recoil and 5.45x V-Recoil in exchange for 2.4x more theoretical (dropping to 1.75x practical) damage already doesn't add up for me, not to mention the Reloading impracticality on top of that.

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15

Saturday, March 4th 2017, 9:30am

Can I ask why you look at vertical recoil and not horizontal? Is horizontal not a more important factor considering its significantly easier to counter vertical recoil than horizontal?

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16

Saturday, March 4th 2017, 10:06am

Can I ask why you look at vertical recoil and not horizontal? Is horizontal not a more important factor considering its significantly easier to counter vertical recoil than horizontal?

Horizontal Recoil is already included in the 4RB Hitrates, so it is a part of the Firing Score.

For example, both the Howdah and the Auto Revolver shoot the same "projectile" in-game, and thus they use the same damage model. However, the former has H-Recoil values of 1.5L / 1.5R, while the latter has 1L / 1R.

4RB Hitrates, 10m ADS - Not Moving

Howdah: 100% | 87.6774% | 69.9248% | 61.9039%

Auto Revolver: 100% | 98.5426% | 85.8359% | 77.1287%

Average 4RB Damage Output

Howdah: 159.75305

Auto Revolver: 180.7536

That difference is purely due to H-Recoil; they have the same stats that would otherwise affect accuracy (Spread and Spread Increase Per Shot).

-----

V-Recoil, on the other hand, is a set and linear value (at least in BF1, for Sidearms and Medic Self-Loading Rifles), which is theoretically possible to fully counter. Thus it is usually ignored when looking at how good a weapon is at doing its job of... dealing damage. I am a bit of a scrub, though, so I added the Useability criteria, which includes V-Recoil. Really skilled players can safely ignore that section, and just go straight to the Deploy + Shoot + Recover chart.

It looks at how much V-Recoil you have to suffer through before reaching the Damage Target. Thus a gun with high V-Recoil in its stat can still score well, if it is highly damaging and accurate, so you don't have to fire many shots (and thus incur many instances of V-Recoil) in order to get the job done.

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17

Saturday, March 4th 2017, 10:24am

Vrecoil is part of the 3 Usability aspects: Vrecoil, reload, and velocity. Usability translates to ease of use attributes the weapon has that don't really impact performance per se. Hrecoil does affect performance very noticeably at range and I'm pretty sure Hrecoil a component that determines the Firing Score. Adequate practice with weapons negates the 3 Usability aspects; Vrecoil can be compensated for, one can learn to manage poor reloads, and velocity is just factoring in how much one needs to lead a moving target.

These can be controlled where Hrecoil cannot, here's why:

Imagine a number line whose integers extend from -0.3 to 0.3; an example for the movement of a weapon's Hrecoil. After the first shot, both Vrecoil and Hrecoil kick in. Vrecoil increases linearly and predictably, but Hrecoil is very much random. Basically the Hrecoil value can exist anywhere between our two points of - 0.3 and 0.3, which means it's unpredictable and cannot be reliably compensated. It is out of the player's control and cannot be included in usability.

Edit: Aaaaand I was too late...:(
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
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No Auto Rotation Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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Saturday, March 4th 2017, 10:39pm

Thanks for this, Veritable. Very interesting.

I do wonder tho, how these rankings would look if everything past 15m was ignored. I'm sure I'm not in the minority (maybe HERE I am, but I'm speaking generally) when I say I never use a pistol past 20m or so, and most of the time it's probably within 10m. I'd love to see a comparison where draw time, firing within 15m (maybe with a heavier weighting to hipfire scores?), and reload were the only things looked at. Just a single graph with all of them. Is that possible?


As for what I've settled on, for Scout I use the Frommer, as draw time is of the utmost importance on this class IMO. Medic I used the Tasch, but recently have switched to the Auto revolver. Tried the Bulldog with support, but that reload. Now I use the Steyr as it's just too cool not to use on something. A similar line of thinking led me to use the Howbowdah for assault, but after seeing it at the bottom, maybe I'm gimp in myself too much.

I've never even tried the MLE, maybe I'll give it a go on my assault class. Too bad I scrapped the legendary skin :/

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Saturday, March 4th 2017, 11:48pm

Thanks for this, Veritable. Very interesting.

I do wonder tho, how these rankings would look if everything past 15m was ignored. I'm sure I'm not in the minority (maybe HERE I am, but I'm speaking generally) when I say I never use a pistol past 20m or so, and most of the time it's probably within 10m. I'd love to see a comparison where draw time, firing within 15m (maybe with a heavier weighting to hipfire scores?), and reload were the only things looked at. Just a single graph with all of them. Is that possible?

Yes. See attachments.

If all metricses are considered, then the overall rankings don't change much. P08, C93 and the Beretta swap some places.

If we further ignore V-Recoil and Velocity as you suggest, then the M1911 is on top... because those 2 are SPECIFICALLY its problems, compared to its peers.

Your selections already jives fairly well with the original post rankings, which is what I mean by these theoretical studies ultimately have to pass the "smell test" to be useful.

From what I can tell, the reason why these criteria are not fond of the Auto Revolver (and other revolver "hand cannons" in general) is their insane H-Recoil. Compound that with their low RoF, even at 5m ADS - Not Moving, I have the Auto Revolver and the Mauser "Pocket Pistol" both reach the 200dmg target at the same 1.066666667, despite 2x more damaging projectile. Yes the Tasch needs 2x longer to Recover, due to 2x rounds fired, but that is just a difference of 0.1333333333s. This is contrasted by 1.77s difference in Reload Time.

Revolvers need a very challenging playstyle to succeed, but unlike the Medic Auto-8 .35 and 1906, due to the presence of 450rpm Pocket Pistols and 360rpm "not-service-pistols," you don't even gain any advantage in terms of TTK. I just... don't see it. For showing-off and feeling like a BAMF when you quick-draw then 2-shot someone in CQB, I guess?
Veritable has attached the following files:

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Sunday, March 5th 2017, 3:29am

Well inside of 10 meters, the revolvers out DPS the automatico, which means you can treat them as a second CQC primary if you're using a long ranged weapon like the auto-8 marksman. I know that's what Duck thinks.

Though frankly, I think it's clear from your analysis that you can't count on achieving 100% hitrate statistically. And obviously not even the most accomplished players speak dismissively of the automatico and how easy it is to defeat with hipfiring a revolver.