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VincentNZ

Holy War? No Thanks.

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Posts: 2,563

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: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

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31

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 10:44am

I would have liked to be quoted directly, if my words get thrown in to win a bet. :D I did indeed refer to it as the finisher pistol. It is still true that in ANY case you only need one hit to kill a guy, which is easier to do with the MARS as two shots with the Frommer. This is from my perspective, I can not hit well with the revolvers and low ROF weapons, but I am still far more accurate, and it is indeed the second shot that usually does not connect.

I would still prefer the Frommer overall as a sidearm, because it has a high ROF paired with decent damage. But if I am running a Marksman or Sniper BA and will likely need to finish off a guy at longer ranges, the Mars would be got-to.

By the way I believe the quote was the first answer to the OP, right? I did not want to elaborate that much on a simple question, so I just said what the thing was designed for.

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: Jun 21st 2012

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32

Saturday, May 13th 2017, 4:14pm

@JSLICE20

You completely threw off any distance related text from my posts in your quotes - the whole point is that Mars is nearly all-range pistol(OFC on reasonable distances, not on something like 100m), as it's damage model could allow you to, techically, finish enemy with one shot even at 50m. With Frommer Stop you simply wipe anyone in CQB, with finishing shot or with pistol alone, but, for example, 20m lower muzzle velocity, worse minspread and weaker damage takes its part.I never said that Mars is "bestgun" or "best overall". It's versatile, it's good at medium ranges, can be used at longer ranges(but, with BASR as primary that's just stupid) and OFC it's bad in CQB in comparison to Frommer Stop or Bodeo.
To be clear, in short:
If you're running in CQB style(M95 Infantry, 1895 Trench) or with Martini-Henry - Frommer Stop is much better choice, since you're mostly play in ranges, where Frommer Stop shines at its best.
If you're playing at something like SMLE Marksman' sweetspot ranges - Mars is a decent choice, since you're avoiding CQB engaments anyway.
Sorry for my bad english - it's not my native language and I have difficulties with acquiring speaking/writing practice in my country. If I accidently insult you or say something wrong - I'm sorry, you can feel free to correct me.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Diavol" (May 13th 2017, 11:33pm)


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: Apr 26th 2013

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33

Sunday, May 14th 2017, 9:24am

No. No I did not. The mis-comprehension is quite evident in here, I must say. I specifically quoted portions mentioning distance, but highlighted the premise of the statements; you can look back a few posts and see that for yourself.

So the Mars is indeed better than the Frommer Stop at irrelevant ranges to use a pistol at, that seems like a disadvantage. It makes no sense to use a pistol at 30m-50m whose velocity and accuracy are significantly lower than the Single Action Rifle equipped. It only makes sense to pull out the pistol if you can draw and shoot faster than a follow-up shot with your primary can achieve.

Also, the preposterous notion that I accused anyone of saying that the Mars is "bestgun" or "best overall" is evidence to a misunderstanding of my post in its entirety. Note that the whole context is in terms of 'finisher pistol' which I did not deviate from. I specifically accused those claiming that it's a better alternative, as a finisher pistol, than the Frommer Stop (which was the only comparison being made) or just straight-up the best when there's plenty of data to suggest that it isn't that they were mistaken. Neither claim holds up.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 3,350

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34

Sunday, May 14th 2017, 9:42am

The only problem I'm seeing here is a failure to account for and/or accept differing playstyles. I personally don't like the Mars that much, but not because it's "bad", but rather because it doesn't complement my own Scout playstyle. The Mars complements the exact rifles, ranges, and situations that I don't find myself in that much as Scout, so it's not that useful to me.

The Mars would work best with medium-closer ranged rifles like the SMLE, Lebel, and 1895, played at a reasonably aggressive and quite mobile pace, generally sightly behind frontline teammates in a semi-DMR-ish role, often too close and hectic to cycle the bolt for all of your follow-up shots, but not so close and hectic that a pocket pistol or melee would be relevant.

Personally, I run either the M.95 Marksman or M1903 Marksman, so "middle of the road" isn't a concept I roll with too much as Scout; my sidearm of choice for both rifles is the C93.
Who has fun, wins.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (May 14th 2017, 9:55am)


This post by "JSLICE20" (Sunday, May 14th 2017, 9:58am) has been deleted by user "yugas42" (Sunday, May 14th 2017, 1:11pm) with the following reason: Rule 3

Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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: Dec 23rd 2013

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36

Sunday, May 14th 2017, 11:14am

@JSLICE20

You asked me to come here and support your argument, but I have to disagree with you.


Firstly, let's establish that the Mars is a long range sidearm, or even better, a long range finisher. It is not designed to be the finisher at every range, but the long range finisher. Yes, it can be a finisher in CQB, but as you've pointed out so spectacularly, the Frommer works better for this. However, the Frommer doesn't work at range. And that's where the Mars comes in.

It has 0.18 min spread, enough to guarantee a OHK out to 80 m. And a velocity of 530 m/s to go with it, the highest out of any sidearm.

Does it have a role? Yes. Is this a rather useless role? Probably. Do I think the Mars is a total piece of trash? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's completely useless.


As for your argument about statistical performance: it works up to a point. If we were purely going off statistical performance, then why would we need a sidearm at all, if your sniper rifle is a OHK to the head at all ranges? The obvious answer is that humans have a limit to the sort of statistical performance that is possible.

I think the argument that you're pushing has passed that point. A difference in TTK of 0.067s is really small - in fact, that's half the time that it takes for an SLR or SMG with ironsights to ADS. It's so small that it can pretty much be ignored.

The reason for the Frommer being the better finisher in CQB is not that it has a faster TTK - although that is technically correct - but that it's a more reliable finisher because you can spam it, whereas with the Mars you can't.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zer0Cod3x" (May 14th 2017, 11:19am)


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: Apr 26th 2013

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37

Sunday, May 14th 2017, 1:03pm

Cod3x, I can respect that. I saw and understood the argument that the Mars is good as a long range finisher, but, as we both agree on, it's a rather pointless attribute to have in a pistol. However, I didn't advocate, or didn't intend to advocate, that human error isn't unavoidable (even with mounds of practice). In fact, the spam-ability of the Frommer is something I was thinking about while composing these responses but didn't bother to type out, because in a panic, quick-switch to finish someone off with the Mars it is very possible to miss that beloved 'money shot' which is typically a death sentence. A higher RoF is more forgiving and more consistent in those situations, I would think.

And with that I bid this discussion adieu. I'm done making an ass out of myself for one topic that I should have just left alone in hindsight.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (May 14th 2017, 2:25pm)