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11

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:34am

I honestly do not understand the auto 8 marks being a "skill cannon" I would argue the 1916 is more of a skill cannon. In that the 1916 with its slower rate of fire, higher recoil, and worse hip firing... any miss shot is much more detrimental to your life than the auto 8. To be "skillfully" with either gun... the 1916 you have to have better aim and better movement in evading to open up the possibility of the extra ammo being usefull. Other wise the auto 8 is going to be easier and better to use. Skill cannon to me is hard to use, very risky, but ultimately awarding in the hands of a skilled player. The auto 8 is easy to use given you dont suck at the game, if you suck at the game then there is no such thing as a skill cannon at said skill level.

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12

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 4:04am

I honestly do not understand the auto 8 marks being a "skill cannon" I would argue the 1916 is more of a skill cannon. In that the 1916 with its slower rate of fire, higher recoil, and worse hip firing... any miss shot is much more detrimental to your life than the auto 8. To be "skillfully" with either gun... the 1916 you have to have better aim and better movement in evading to open up the possibility of the extra ammo being usefull. Other wise the auto 8 is going to be easier and better to use. Skill cannon to me is hard to use, very risky, but ultimately awarding in the hands of a skilled player. The auto 8 is easy to use given you dont suck at the game, if you suck at the game then there is no such thing as a skill cannon at said skill level.
The 1916 offers no competitive benefits compared to any of the similar 3-hit KO Medic rifles outside of a larger magazine and a consistent reload time. It's simply mediocre overall compared to the other SLR's. One is essentially opting to play at a disadvantage against every other equally skilled player in the game by picking the 1916. In fact, it's even more of an ease-of-use option than the Autoloading 8 ever was (as in, the exact opposite). The larger magazine size of the 1916 is convenient for players who have less-than-stellar aim and need the extra bullets to make up for missed shots. Skilled players who can hit their shots have no need for the weapon.

The Autoloading 8 is much more difficult to use because of how unforgiving its smaller magazine size is, forcing frequent reloads and good positioning away from multiple enemies. In exchange for this disadvantage, the Autoloading 8 grants the skilled player almost unmatched 1v1 potential in almost all gunfights, at almost all ranges. Hence, why it is titled a "skill-cannon".

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13

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:04am

Just tried the model 10-a slug in a domination match.

And I have to say, using skill cannons in a game where you're on the losing team and that team is getting slaughtered is miserable.

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14

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:05am

Okay, let's set things straight. Using a crappy gun "skillfully" does not make it a 'skill cannon.'

A weapon that is just bad overall does not mean it requires 'skill'...to use effectively or even that it becomes skill-based in the hands of a capable player. Skill-cannons tend to have amazing stats and become dominant in practice when used proficiently, but retain severe drawbacks if not used proficiently. [Basically, they are unforgiving if you aren't good. This incorporates aim and positioning.]

Statistically, the 1916 is bad. This is a fact based in the science here on Symthic. Its TTK is terrible until around 50m where it starts competing, moderately. It's intended as a long range SLR, but the Mondragon is better at that. The only advantage that the 1916 has is a big magazine that reloads fast. That is literally it. There is no possible way it could even be remotely considered to be a 'skill cannon.' Everything in the Medic class beats it and many weapons in other classes beat it too. Getting kills with it inside 50m means this: your opponents were bad, your opponents weren't paying attention.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Mar 2nd 2017, 5:17am) with the following reason: Punctuation.


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15

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 6:02am

Okay, let's set things straight. Using a crappy gun "skillfully" does not make it a 'skill cannon.'

A weapon that is just bad overall does not mean it requires 'skill'...to use effectively or even that it becomes skill-based in the hands of a capable player. Skill-cannons tend to have amazing stats and become dominant in practice when used proficiently, but retain severe drawbacks if not used proficiently. [Basically, they are unforgiving if you aren't good. This incorporates aim and positioning.]

Statistically, the 1916 is bad. This is a fact based in the science here on Symthic. Its TTK is terrible until around 50m where it starts competing, moderately. It's intended as a long range SLR, but the Mondragon is better at that. The only advantage that the 1916 has is a big magazine that reloads fast. That is literally it. There is no possible way it could even be remotely considered to be a 'skill cannon.' Everything in the Medic class beats it and many weapons in other classes beat it too. Getting kills with it inside 50m means this: your opponents were bad, your opponents weren't paying attention.
Following on this:

Another way to think of a skill cannon is a gun that has a high penalty for failure for not being both accurate and precise with your fire. IE aiming fast, aiming well, and controlling the gun to keep in on target while it recoils and the target moves.

Guns that are objectively bad (ie are mechanically just not accurate or capable of throwing out an effective DPS even with good aim), are not skill cannons. They tend to have other features like spammability.

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16

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 10:22am

Okay, let's set things straight. Using a crappy gun "skillfully" does not make it a 'skill cannon.'

A weapon that is just bad overall does not mean it requires 'skill'...to use effectively or even that it becomes skill-based in the hands of a capable player. Skill-cannons tend to have amazing stats and become dominant in practice when used proficiently, but retain severe drawbacks if not used proficiently. [Basically, they are unforgiving if you aren't good. This incorporates aim and positioning.]

Statistically, the 1916 is bad. This is a fact based in the science here on Symthic. Its TTK is terrible until around 50m where it starts competing, moderately. It's intended as a long range SLR, but the Mondragon is better at that. The only advantage that the 1916 has is a big magazine that reloads fast. That is literally it. There is no possible way it could even be remotely considered to be a 'skill cannon.' Everything in the Medic class beats it and many weapons in other classes beat it too. Getting kills with it inside 50m means this: your opponents were bad, your opponents weren't paying attention.
#mce_temp_url#


Actually the 1916 is about middle of the road in shooting and recovery close up and is in the topper end for longer ranges. It has fast reload, fastest velocity, good spread and such, and large mag means it has the highest killing potential for any of the medic guns. The skill comes from never missing shots as it has slower rof as well as flanking enemies and bobbing in and out of cover between shots. If you are hitting each of you shots and clearing a whole point by your self- that is when this gun shines vs the other medic guns.

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17

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 11:26am

The skill comes from never missing shots as it has slower rof as well as flanking enemies and bobbing in and out of cover between shots. If you are hitting each of you shots and clearing a whole point by your self- that is when this gun shines vs the other medic guns.


None of the "skillful" behavior you listed is exclusive to the M1916.

Apply any of that behavior (not missing, flanking, disengaging/reengaging) to any other rifle and you'll get better results because they all have better lethality than the M1916.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

If it flies, it dies™.

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18

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 12:19pm

@tacomm

Keep in mind that the data from Veritable's charts focuses on a Damage Target of 200 while factoring in usability (without usability the 1916 would be almost dead last in most cases). That said, this Damage Target doesn't shoot back, but any gun can be good if the target doesn't shoot back.

Shooting and Recovery score up close: notice how the Shooting is the absolute worst out of all the rifles; the only saving grace here is Recovery, but Recovery isn't going to be beneficial if dead which is what you'll be with a bad Shooting score against capable players.

Reload, Velocity, and Vrecoil are purely usability i.e. ease of use attributes. Ease of use and 'skill cannon' are not connected and will never be connected. These 3 factors help the 1916 to rise in the chart rankings, otherwise, like I said, it would be dead last or near dead last almost every time.

Bringing a non-CQB gun into CQB doesn't mean skill is involved when kills are achieved. It means, as I've already iterated, that your competition flat out sucks or you caught them by surprise. If you are continuously "clearing points" on your own with the slowest firing SLR then this is evidence that your competition sucks or is just stupid. By the same token it doesn't involve skill to use an Automatico at medium range. It's designed for close range, so any kills outside of this range are by luck or, again, crap competition. Have you noticed the trend, yet?

It is 100% guaranteed in a 1v1 close range situation that another player with virtually identical aim prowess as you will win if they have literally any other SLR than the 1916. Was he more skilled than you? No, not at all; his weapon's performance just exceeded yours so he was guaranteed the kill. That's it. Now, imagine this same scenario, but both of you have the 1916 for the sake of argument. I'm not condoning close range use of a long range SLR, mind you. Both of you are equally skilled in terms of aim, so who wins then? The player with the superior positioning. This is why skill cannot be limited to cognitive ability regarding aim and why "never missing shots" does not equal skill.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Zer0Cod3x

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19

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:43pm

A skill cannon is a weapon that, if you are skilled in some aspect of the game, you will reach a higher level of effectiveness than other weapons.

Whether the skill is represented through positioning, like the Model 8, or aim, like the M10-A Slug, or something else, it doesn't particularly matter, but both these weapons do reward you significantly for your skill.


The M1916 has neither. It relies more on bad enemies than your own skill to use effectively, and its rewards are pretty mediocre. It's not a skill cannon.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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20

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 2:50pm

so apparently, according to some people the sjogren is a skill-basedweapon, the shotgun that can both 1 shot kill or have the same ttk as the src1917.
i don't think people know the actual definition of skill weapon and for that reason i'm also not sure if it matters in terms of game design for there to be skill cannons.
"I'm just a loot whore."


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obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Headshot distance RANK:493* TOP:0%
Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100


WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

link to full-size old avatar:
http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif