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## On the subject of skillcannons...

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Posts: 41

Date of registration
: Feb 2nd 2017

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 1

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:34am

I honestly do not understand the auto 8 marks being a "skill cannon" I would argue the 1916 is more of a skill cannon. In that the 1916 with its slower rate of fire, higher recoil, and worse hip firing... any miss shot is much more detrimental to your life than the auto 8. To be "skillfully" with either gun... the 1916 you have to have better aim and better movement in evading to open up the possibility of the extra ammo being usefull. Other wise the auto 8 is going to be easier and better to use. Skill cannon to me is hard to use, very risky, but ultimately awarding in the hands of a skilled player. The auto 8 is easy to use given you dont suck at the game, if you suck at the game then there is no such thing as a skill cannon at said skill level.

Posts: 105

Date of registration
: Oct 28th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: California

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 4:04am

### Quoted from "tacomn"

I honestly do not understand the auto 8 marks being a "skill cannon" I would argue the 1916 is more of a skill cannon. In that the 1916 with its slower rate of fire, higher recoil, and worse hip firing... any miss shot is much more detrimental to your life than the auto 8. To be "skillfully" with either gun... the 1916 you have to have better aim and better movement in evading to open up the possibility of the extra ammo being usefull. Other wise the auto 8 is going to be easier and better to use. Skill cannon to me is hard to use, very risky, but ultimately awarding in the hands of a skilled player. The auto 8 is easy to use given you dont suck at the game, if you suck at the game then there is no such thing as a skill cannon at said skill level.
The 1916 offers no competitive benefits compared to any of the similar 3-hit KO Medic rifles outside of a larger magazine and a consistent reload time. It's simply mediocre overall compared to the other SLR's. One is essentially opting to play at a disadvantage against every other equally skilled player in the game by picking the 1916. In fact, it's even more of an ease-of-use option than the Autoloading 8 ever was (as in, the exact opposite). The larger magazine size of the 1916 is convenient for players who have less-than-stellar aim and need the extra bullets to make up for missed shots. Skilled players who can hit their shots have no need for the weapon.

The Autoloading 8 is much more difficult to use because of how unforgiving its smaller magazine size is, forcing frequent reloads and good positioning away from multiple enemies. In exchange for this disadvantage, the Autoloading 8 grants the skilled player almost unmatched 1v1 potential in almost all gunfights, at almost all ranges. Hence, why it is titled a "skill-cannon".

Posts: 129

Date of registration
: Oct 8th 2016

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 2

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:04am

Just tried the model 10-a slug in a domination match.

And I have to say, using skill cannons in a game where you're on the losing team and that team is getting slaughtered is miserable.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 5:05am

Okay, let's set things straight. Using a crappy gun "skillfully" does not make it a 'skill cannon.'

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

A weapon that is just bad overall does not mean it requires 'skill'...to use effectively or even that it becomes skill-based in the hands of a capable player. Skill-cannons tend to have amazing stats and become dominant in practice when used proficiently, but retain severe drawbacks if not used proficiently. [Basically, they are unforgiving if you aren't good. This incorporates aim and positioning.]

Statistically, the 1916 is bad. This is a fact based in the science here on Symthic. Its TTK is terrible until around 50m where it starts competing, moderately. It's intended as a long range SLR, but the Mondragon is better at that. The only advantage that the 1916 has is a big magazine that reloads fast. That is literally it. There is no possible way it could even be remotely considered to be a 'skill cannon.' Everything in the Medic class beats it and many weapons in other classes beat it too. Getting kills with it inside 50m means this: your opponents were bad, your opponents weren't paying attention.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### My "Contributions"

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 1:43pm

A skill cannon is a weapon that, if you are skilled in some aspect of the game, you will reach a higher level of effectiveness than other weapons.

Whether the skill is represented through positioning, like the Model 8, or aim, like the M10-A Slug, or something else, it doesn't particularly matter, but both these weapons do reward you significantly for your skill.

The M1916 has neither. It relies more on bad enemies than your own skill to use effectively, and its rewards are pretty mediocre. It's not a skill cannon.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Pinkie

Posts: 7,809

Date of registration
: Feb 25th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: italy

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Thursday, March 2nd 2017, 2:50pm

so apparently, according to some people the sjogren is a skill-basedweapon, the shotgun that can both 1 shot kill or have the same ttk as the src1917.
i don't think people know the actual definition of skill weapon and for that reason i'm also not sure if it matters in terms of game design for there to be skill cannons.
"I'm just a loot whore."

### stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody

bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

### Quoted from "CobaltRose"

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100

WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500