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Zer0Cod3x

Can't get a title

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Posts: 1,531

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: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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61

Sunday, February 26th 2017, 11:48pm

@InterimAegis

There are certain problems with not assuming a 100% player accuracy, mostly to do with having too many variables to account for.

What sort of accuracy are you talking about? 50%? 75%? If so, which bullets in the burst are missing? There's a big difference between having the first 50% of your bullets miss, than having every second bullet miss, or having the last 50% of your bullets missing. And how exactly does this player not have 100% accuracy? Bad recoil control? Bad aim? Some combination of both? Is this non-perfect accuracy assumed for the enemy as well? If so, then to what degree?

If you want to create a separate scenario for each possibility and run the numbers for each one of them, be my guest. But personally, that'll take way too much time that I'd rather spend somewhere else.


Additionally, player balance is done assuming that each player is of the highest skill, i.e. has 100% accuracy. Thus, in order to verify whether or not weapons are balanced correctly, you need to assume the same.


@JSLICE20

I think I'd trust a PhD in physics. js
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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: Mar 31st 2015

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62

Monday, February 27th 2017, 12:05am

What sort of accuracy are you talking about? 50%? 75%? If so, which bullets in the burst are missing? There's a big difference between having the first 50% of your bullets miss, than having every second bullet miss, or having the last 50% of your bullets missing. And how exactly does this player not have 100% accuracy? Bad recoil control? Bad aim? Some combination of both? Is this non-perfect accuracy assumed for the enemy as well? If so, then to what degree?


I think am going to use hitrater so that I don't have to guess. Start at 100% for the first shot and then the first shot immediately after each kill. From there, maybe you achieve the perfect hitrater accuracy a certain percentage for the time.

Might take me a few days, though. Does hit rater work on OSX? Run the simulation enough times and you know the EFFECTIVE TTK and EFFECTIVE KPC (kills per capacity) for 1) any SLR in 2) any given stance at 3) any given range. I think a variation on this has been done before on here (sorry, forget who because I am fairly new), but it might be nice to have a couple simulators out there to crosscheck numbers. Furthermore, I don't have access to the raw data, so might as well build one.

Code is pretty much done, just need the hitrater numbers.

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63

Monday, February 27th 2017, 12:45am

@Veritable

Using your hitrater numbers for the M1916 Optical ADS, standing, 100m (and just taking your 5th bullet accuracy for bullets 6-26), I ran a simulation 100000 times. The average number of kills per reload was 1.42 and the average number of bullets required for a kill was 9.78.
InterimAegis has attached the following file:
  • 1916OA100m.png (7.98 kB - 3 times downloaded - latest: Feb 27th 2017, 4:30pm)

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "InterimAegis" (Feb 27th 2017, 4:23am)


Posts: 100

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: Jul 28th 2014

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64

Monday, February 27th 2017, 6:16am

My only concern is that the Ribeyrolles functions too much like an assault rifle. That means that the Assault class will be balanced between SMG's, shotguns, and one assault rifle, and it's not a stretch to say that it'll probably be the most widely used weapon for the class as such. Moreso than the Hellriegel, due to how well it functions at range.

Also, it kind of puts a further damper on the WWI feel.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ONI" (Feb 27th 2017, 6:21am)


Posts: 120

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65

Monday, February 27th 2017, 6:57am

Well, it SHOULD be just as bad at long range as Scout's '03 Exp is in close range.

Poor, but useable.... and hopefully fun.

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: Apr 26th 2013

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Location: Arizona, USA

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66

Monday, February 27th 2017, 7:08am

The Ribeyrolles is essentially a Carbine; it blends the gap between the SMGs and the MGs. I'm skeptical about it's status in the CTE just through observation, as I do not have access for personal exposure, but there's a chance some things will be tuned for the actual release of the DLC. As it stands it shares the same rate of fire and spread increase as the MP18 (550 RPM), the same min spread as the Model 10-A Slug (0.24), the same mag size as the Automatico (25 rounds), the same min damage of the Huot and Lewis Gun (15), and the same Hrecoil as the Benet Mercie Telescopic (0.12, as of Winter Update). It literally combines aspects related to SMGs and MGs into one weapon platform which makes me a little anxious about the future of what ranges classes are limited to.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

Source code

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.2
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 1.2
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0

No Slowdown Data

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AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 1.0
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom -1.0
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.0
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 0.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.0
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0


No Auto Rotation Data

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 AccelerationInputThreshold 0.98
    AccelerationMultiplier 5.0
    AccelerationDamping 4.0
    AccelerationTimeThreshold 0.15
    SquaredAcceleration 0.0
    MaxAcceleration::Vec2
        x 2.0
        y 2.0
    YawSpeedStrength 1.0
    PitchSpeedStrength 1.0
    AttractDistanceFallOffs::Vec2
        x 1.0
        y 1.2
    AttractSoftZone 0.75
    AttractUserInputMultiplier 0.45
    AttractUserInputMultiplier_NoZoom 0.5
    AttractOwnSpeedInfluence 0.0
    AttractTargetSpeedInfluence 0.85
    AttractOwnRequiredMovementForMaximumAttract 0.0
    AttractStartInputThreshold 0.1
    AttractMoveInputCap 0.0
    AttractYawStrength 1.0
    AttractPitchStrength 0.34
    MaxToTargetAngle 45.0
    MaxToTargetXZAngle 45.0
    ViewObstructedKeepTime 0.0
    SnapZoomLateralSpeedLimit 1000.0
    SnapZoomTime 0.2
    SnapZoomPostTimeNoInput 0.0
    SnapZoomPostTime 0.0
    SnapZoomReticlePointPriority 999
    SnapZoomAutoEngageTime 0.0
    SnapZoomBreakTimeAtMaxInput -1.0
    SnapZoomBreakMaxInput 0.2
    SnapZoomBreakMinAngle 90.0
    SnapZoomSpamGuardTime 0.5
    SoldierBackupSkeletonCollisionData *nullGuid*
    CheckBoneCenterOnlyDistance 40.0
    DisableForcedTargetRecalcDistance 7.0

Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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67

Monday, February 27th 2017, 7:14am

My only concern is that the Ribeyrolles functions too much like an assault rifle. That means that the Assault class will be balanced between SMG's, shotguns, and one assault rifle, and it's not a stretch to say that it'll probably be the most widely used weapon for the class as such. Moreso than the Hellriegel, due to how well it functions at range.

Also, it kind of puts a further damper on the WWI feel.

Lol ww1 feel, you mean like that 50% of german empire army has black soldiers?
Or how the french are not even in the base game?

Also the hellriegel is absolute crap, you get easily out dmged by the Mp18 at all ranges even though it has a higher rof. The Mp18 user doesn't even have to ads at 15 meters.
And the automatico beats both the Mp18 and hellriegel in close quarters.

So the ribeyerolles will be better at ranged.
But Mp18 has 7 more bullets in a magazine and a little less recoil upwards, a little faster reload.
So Asssault will have the Slug and ribeyerolles for medium long range.
In close quarters it will be beaten by , Shotguns, automatico, .35

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68

Monday, February 27th 2017, 8:16am

The Ribeyrolles is essentially a Carbine; it blends the gap between the SMGs and the MGs. I'm skeptical about it's status in the CTE just through observation, as I do not have access for personal exposure, but there's a chance some things will be tuned for the actual release of the DLC. As it stands it shares the same rate of fire and spread increase as the MP18 (550 RPM), the same min spread as the Model 10-A Slug (0.24), the same mag size as the Automatico (25 rounds), the same min damage of the Huot and Lewis Gun (15), and the same Hrecoil as the Benet Mercie Telescopic (0.12, as of Winter Update). It literally combines aspects related to SMGs and MGs into one weapon platform which makes me a little anxious about the future of what ranges classes are limited to.

That's my fear exactly. The Assault class, up to this point, has been established as a short-range class that's quite limited on large, open maps. I liked this change, because in BF3/4, the Assault class, through its diverse collection of assault rifles, was the ultimate infantry class.

My only concern is that the Ribeyrolles functions too much like an assault rifle. That means that the Assault class will be balanced between SMG's, shotguns, and one assault rifle, and it's not a stretch to say that it'll probably be the most widely used weapon for the class as such. Moreso than the Hellriegel, due to how well it functions at range.

Also, it kind of puts a further damper on the WWI feel.

Lol ww1 feel, you mean like that 50% of german empire army has black soldiers?
Or how the french are not even in the base game?

Also the hellriegel is absolute crap, you get easily out dmged by the Mp18 at all ranges even though it has a higher rof. The Mp18 user doesn't even have to ads at 15 meters.
And the automatico beats both the Mp18 and hellriegel in close quarters.

So the ribeyerolles will be better at ranged.
But Mp18 has 7 more bullets in a magazine and a little less recoil upwards, a little faster reload.
So Asssault will have the Slug and ribeyerolles for medium long range.
In close quarters it will be beaten by , Shotguns, automatico, .35

I mean in terms of gameplay. Part of the original appeal for the game taking place in WW1 was that the gameplay would be far more different from BF4, since automatic weaponry was very limited, and most of the weapons that were used were semi-auto or bolt-action rifles. The Assault class's SMG's kind of disrupt that dynamic, but because the SMG's aren't very good at range, they fit the metagame's close quarters niche (close quarters battles with exclusively rifles might be awkward). The MP18 Optical is currently the class's best automatic weapon for ranges, but it's still not anywhere close to SLR's, LMG's, or bolt-actions in that regard. While this means some maps (e.g. Amiens) or parts of some maps (e.g. Ballroom Blitz) are more dominated by SMG's, it means that most maps or parts of maps are more suited for slower weapons.

But by putting what's effectively an assault rifle (or a carbine) into the mix, that dynamic is disrupted. We have yet to really see how it will play out, but my fear is that it'll be a weapon that can combat SLR's at ranges. I don't mean to say it'll be better than an SLR, but definitely easier to use than an SLR and better than the MP18 Optical.

Similarly, I didn't mean to say that the Hellriegel was better at range, what I meant was that the Hellriegel is generally the most-used SMG (once it's unlocked). It's a good middle ground between the Automatico's ludicrous close-range domination and the MP18's more controlled range. It's not as strictly limited to one situation as the other two SMG's are. This same kind of logic is why the M16A3 was so widely used in BF3, and why the ACE 23 was so widely used in BF4. They had low recoil, good RPM, and fast reloads; nothing outstanding, but they're jacks of all trades that are easy to use and usable in almost any situation. Yeah, the AEK is better than both of them at closer ranges, and other weapons like the AK-12 or SCAR-H are better at longer ranges, but that adaptability and ease of use meant that most players gravitated towards them.

So far, the Assault class has occupied the niche of dominating at close quarters due to its assortment of shotguns and SMG's. Add an assault rifle/carbine into the mix, and you have a weapon that's far more all-purpose and easier to use than any other weapon in the class, especially due to its low recoil. Some of the other Assault weapons will be better than the Ribeyrolles at close quarters, but it'll be better than all of them at range, and be easier to use than an SLR. It'll be another jack of all trades, though probably not as extreme as in the previous games' examples I gave.

Statistically, in many scenarios, the Model 10-A Slug is the best Assault weapon. But in practice, it's a very difficult weapon to use, so very few players use it. The Ribeyrolles appears to be one of the easiest to use weapons in the game due to its low recoil, and so it may likely become one of the most used weapons.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "ONI" (Feb 27th 2017, 8:56am)


Gecko99

thank mr skeltal

(454)

Posts: 214

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: Dec 17th 2016

Platform: PC

Location: Kauai

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69

Monday, February 27th 2017, 9:24am

I'm pretty confident we will be getting an AR for the Support and Medic classes in the shapes of the Burton LMR and Federov Avtomat, these two weapons along with the Ribeyrolles 1918 Carbine, Winchester Model 1907 and Cei Rigotti are widely considered the first ARs and I think dice really captured that with how they handle and the role they fit.
But aside from these weapons being the closest thing to the definition of an AR in real life, the BAR, Huot and Madsen MG certainly play like ARs in a videogame where weight is not a factor and you can run around and shoulder them.
I would love to make a thread about how Assault Rifles never truly left the battlefield series with BF1 but I'm not sure if I have the vocabulary to convey such a point(if there is even one to be made).
Autoloading 8 .25 extended user.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Gecko99" (Feb 27th 2017, 9:31am)