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## The pseudo-IFV Light Tank configuration is OP.

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Posts: 1,893

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: Jan 12th 2014

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 4:52am

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

I am primarily an infantry player who dabbles in tanks and planes if or when available, if or when being the operative words here. As such, my input will generally revolve around opposing tanks because whenever I play, Blueberry infantry just flat out suck against even the most mediocre of tankers.

As of late I've been working on the Model 8 Marksman and, very obviously, tanks are a Medic's worst fear. I switch between Conquest and Operations depending on how the session is going, and in the times I have played Operations I have encountered quite a few FT Flankers especially when defending. On Operations these things are a fricken menace. Being the very linear game mode that Operations is, FT Flanker tankers (haha...Flanker tankers) don't even have to consider watching their backs because the entire enemy team is laid out on a shiny, silver platter right in front of them.

In fact a Flanker tanker doesn't even have to be aggressive to be effective. The 20mm auto-cannon reloads in 2.5s, does 22 damage, and has a blast radius of 2.5m, guess what the inner blast radius is? 2.49m! What?! Flankers can just casually spew beams of death; accuracy isn't even necessary. This permits a very passive playstyle that is more personally rewarding than being aggressive because he isn't directly in the action.

He will die almost never because long range AT weaponry is limited to Field Guns (if you can find one), Rocket Guns (if it doesn't ricochet or Blueberry Assaults actually engage tanks rather than snipe infantry with them), and opposing tanks (if the operators actually have the mind to withdraw from only farming infantry). When critically damaged it can just repair tracks if need be, retreat nice and quick-like, initiate repairs, and return to action in less than 30s. In that downtime, Assaults cannot even close the gap because he's put about 15 of his friends between you and him ensuring his near-invulnerability.

You all know how dense and concentrated infantry are on Operations, if this thing can find the high ground watch out because it mimics BF3's USAS Frag Rounds. There is no escape if you're targeted, unless the tanker happens to run out of ammo just before you greet the death screen. I imagine it would dominate on Rush and Frontlines as well because infantry-heavy linearity is this tank's best friend.

That said, Conquest is a different story. This mode is dominated by the Heavy tank, Landship, and Artillery Truck. Because of this Flankers are almost non-existent, because maps that feature tanks have multiple tanks, so specializing in AT is practically a necessity. Flankers cannot defend themselves against these highly prevalent options. Since Conquest maps are traditionally wide open, the Flanker is infinitely more exposed; he can't hide behind a wall of infantry while knowing no one can possibly maneuver behind him, unlike Operations. A couple of stealthy Assaults can absolutely ruin his day in the right situation.
But that's just because operations suck, and their suckyness has bled into conquest via map linearization at the design level.

If you submit that the flanker is OP in operations in particular because of the autocannons, then the Breakthrough and SS landship are inherently more OP in the same situation. They pack that same HE autocannon, plus 57mm guns, plus more armor. The breakthrough also just melts field guns and other tanks. The SS just vomits all sorts of HE everywhere.

If you are forced to fight any tank head on along a narrow, static front it's going to be frustrating, but that just boils down to game design.

If the BF1 stats page are to be believed, no one plays operations to any significant degree relative to conq anyway. So ops should be omitted from the balance discussion. DICE needs to stop wasting time on suboptimal game modes that are ultimately under played.

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 5:21am

Wait, people think the light tank is OP now? The tank that gets disabled after 1 field gun shot and destroyed by a second? The tank that isn't even particularly fast? And all this when the A7V still strolls around every battlefield completely immune to disables and covered with thick, well angled armour and constantly birthing an endless stream of respawning goons?

Posts: 3,291

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 5:47am

@tankmayvin

Does the operator of the Breakthrough Heavy Tank have direct access to the auto-cannons? No. Those are positioned at either side, manned by teammates, and cannot even see what the operator is aiming or looking at. They aren't the primary weapon of the tank, either.

The SS Landship, while having an auto-cannon primary, is big, slow, and clunky with exposed tracks that can be easily targeted by the aforementioned long range AT weaponry. It cannot retreat or maneuver as well as the Flanker, plus the operator has to turn his tank to increase the angle that the auto-cannon can fire at which will screw up his Sponson gunners if he has them. The Flanker has a 360° rotating turret, so he can position his tank however he likes, or at angles to minimize incoming damage. The SS Landship can do no such thing.

Also, note how I never gave credence to the 'overpowered' claim. I simply highlighted the situation where the Flanker's effectiveness is magnified: heavy, infantry-laden linearity. Operations is just the prime example for all these these factors to culminate into one situation. By this token, one could say every asset in the game is 'overpowered' to some extent. Actually, you're even the one who bit at my red herring bait when I said that the BAR and Automatico could be classified as 'overpowered' up close (nothing in their respective class can out-gun them), when they're just designed for optimal performance at close range. This is a similar circumstance, actually it's identical, just with vehicles instead. For instance the Artillery Truck is "overpowered" at long range because nothing can reliably deter it, when it's just designed to excel at long range damage output. The mentality is the same; you can't flip flop perspectives between guns and tanks.

### Quoted from "Hau_ruck"

Wait, people think the light tank is OP now?

To clarify, I do not. tankmayvin made it seem that way, unfortunately. I highlighted this error in the above response.

---------------------------

One last thing (just as a general statement). 'Overpowered' is used far too loosely which facilitates its use incorrectly. It's a buzzword, and I'm not fond of it. For something to be truly overpowered, look no further than BF3's M16A3 or AN-94. For Assault Rifles they excelled at all ranges and made practically everything else irrelevant concerning performance. That's your definition of overpowered. Plenty other weapons had a fun factor, but that's not a factor associated with performance.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Feb 23rd 2017, 6:15am)

The Real Yugas

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: Feb 15th 2017

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 6:01am

### Quoted from "Hau_ruck"

Wait, people think the light tank is OP now? The tank that gets disabled after 1 field gun shot and destroyed by a second? The tank that isn't even particularly fast? And all this when the A7V still strolls around every battlefield completely immune to disables and covered with thick, well angled armour and constantly birthing an endless stream of respawning goons?

Did you actually try reading the OP?

Victorious

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 6:26am

### Quoted from "BeefVellington"

The pseudo-IFV Light Tank configuration is OP.

The World Champion wants to know if you are the little shit that keeps sending him mail whenever he uses the Renault FT?
You have just read a Post by The World Champion and now feel smarter for doing so.
-------
Cham·pi·on
noun \Ëˆcham-pÄ“-É™n\

1 : Warrior, Fighter
2 : a militant advocate or defender <a champion of civil rights>
3 : one that does battle for another's rights or honor <God will raise me up a champion — Sir Walter Scott>
4 : a winner of first prize or first place in competition; also : one who shows marked superiority <The champion of the World>

Posts: 1,893

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 6:56am

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

@tankmayvin

Does the operator of the Breakthrough Heavy Tank have direct access to the auto-cannons? No. Those are positioned at either side, manned by teammates, and cannot even see what the operator is aiming or looking at. They aren't the primary weapon of the tank, either.

The SS Landship, while having an auto-cannon primary, is big, slow, and clunky with exposed tracks that can be easily targeted by the aforementioned long range AT weaponry. It cannot retreat or maneuver as well as the Flanker, plus the operator has to turn his tank to increase the angle that the auto-cannon can fire at which will screw up his Sponson gunners if he has them. The Flanker has a 360° rotating turret, so he can position his tank however he likes, or at angles to minimize incoming damage. The SS Landship can do no such thing.

Also, note how I never gave credence to the 'overpowered' claim. I simply highlighted the situation where the Flanker's effectiveness is magnified: heavy, infantry-laden linearity. Operations is just the prime example for all these these factors to culminate into one situation. By this token, one could say every asset in the game is 'overpowered' to some extent. Actually, you're even the one who bit at my red herring bait when I said that the BAR and Automatico could be classified as 'overpowered' up close (nothing in their respective class can out-gun them), when they're just designed for optimal performance at close range. This is a similar circumstance, actually it's identical, just with vehicles instead. For instance the Artillery Truck is "overpowered" at long range because nothing can reliably deter it, when it's just designed to excel at long range damage output. The mentality is the same; you can't flip flop perspectives between guns and tanks.

### Quoted from "Hau_ruck"

Wait, people think the light tank is OP now?

To clarify, I do not. tankmayvin made it seem that way, unfortunately. I highlighted this error in the above response.

---------------------------

One last thing (just as a general statement). 'Overpowered' is used far too loosely which facilitates its use incorrectly. It's a buzzword, and I'm not fond of it. For something to be truly overpowered, look no further than BF3's M16A3 or AN-94. For Assault Rifles they excelled at all ranges and made practically everything else irrelevant concerning performance. That's your definition of overpowered. Plenty other weapons had a fun factor, but that's not a factor associated with performance.
The SS doesn't have to move, it can farm 3 infantry per gun cycle and so can supress way more infantry than the single gun on the FT. It can also actually take some fire and can carry organic repairs. Landship is actually way better at bouncing shells than the FT. The only way you're bouncing shells on the FT is a glancing side hit when it;s facing you, and that's just bad aim. BF1 isn't really that generous in terms of facing damage reduction either.

The fact that the breaktough has a 57mm AT on top of the autocannon is a good thing. The 57mm can wipe out tanks, clear out field guns, and derp prone infantry while the autocannon farms. The autocannon is a generous weapon and can thus kill very effectively even with the driver moving around unlike the HMGs.

Basically, the point remains that no matter how good the flanker can be, basically every other tank is better on average. Or at least has the theoretical capability of being better. It's tough to actually push a landship to it's potential because of blueberry crews, etc.

PvF 2017 Champion

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 7:29am

@tankmayvin

So basically you are comparing 3 people in an A7V to 1 person in an FT.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Can't get a title

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: Dec 23rd 2013

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Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 7:47am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

Basically, the point remains that no matter how good the flanker can be, basically every other tank is better on average. Or at least has the theoretical capability of being better. It's tough to actually push a landship to it's potential because of blueberry crews, etc.

The Landship is better than every other vehicle. This has already been well established. The problem is getting a good crew that you can actually rely on.

Outside of that, if your team is actually doing a good job killing armour, then I'd take the Flanker over the A7V for infantry farming any day. It's far more efficient at killing infantry than the A7V is, being able to kill 2-3 enemies per 5 seconds vs the A7V's 1 every 3 seconds, and also a 360 degree turret. It also only requires one person to operate it at max efficiency (unlike the Breakthrough/SS's three), freeing up two people to play as infantry.

The only problem is the team being able to kill armour.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 8:34am

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

@tankmayvin

So basically you are comparing 3 people in an A7V to 1 person in an FT.
I'm comparing a single vehicle slot, to a single vehicle slot.

1 vs 3 is irrelevant on a 32 man server anyway. That's far less than the number of backcamping snipers.

Neglecting that the landship and A7V can carry organic repairs is a huge folly as well - tanking damage benefits everyone. It's good for the tank and it's good for the infantry, who can kill rocket gunners and suicidal explosive guys with ease.

What's more "OP": 2 guys plus a vehicle slot that can tank/outkill a more or less constant stream of 2-3 assaults. Or a 1 guy + a tank slot that can farm incompetent infantry but has to run or melt if anything actually starts shooting at it.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Feb 23rd 2017, 8:46am)

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Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 8:41am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

Basically, the point remains that no matter how good the flanker can be, basically every other tank is better on average. Or at least has the theoretical capability of being better. It's tough to actually push a landship to it's potential because of blueberry crews, etc.

The Landship is better than every other vehicle. This has already been well established. The problem is getting a good crew that you can actually rely on.

Outside of that, if your team is actually doing a good job killing armour, then I'd take the Flanker over the A7V for infantry farming any day. It's far more efficient at killing infantry than the A7V is, being able to kill 2-3 enemies per 5 seconds vs the A7V's 1 every 3 seconds, and also a 360 degree turret. It also only requires one person to operate it at max efficiency (unlike the Breakthrough/SS's three), freeing up two people to play as infantry.

The only problem is the team being able to kill armour.
Breakthrough is best crewed with 2+1 dedicated rep/tailgunner. The second autocannon is heavily underused because of facing.

Even against just infantry threats, the flanker FT is still super vulnerable to getting dumped on by rocket gun spam. I don't find it's actual rate of killing is that much better than the A7V assault since you're constantly hiding. 57mm he is also tremendously more powerful vs entrenched infantry and things behind cover. Sure you can splash kill with the generous autocannon, but you cannot reduce cover to rubble as well, and that's hugely important. The assault is also actually useful as a flag/objective pusher since it can vomit infantry.

The A7V paces very well in that you can usually dump your mag and then repair and replenish at the same time. If you're not having to repair, then sure you could farm faster with the flanker but that requires the enemy team be relatively incompetent. I don't like relying on the competence of my team or the incompetence of the enemy to be effective.

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