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## "The Model 8 is worstgun"

Hey! If this is your first visit on symthic.com, also check out our weapon damage charts.
Currently we have charts for Battlefield 3, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, Medal of Honor: Warfighter and Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3

Pinkie

Posts: 7,809

Date of registration
: Feb 25th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: italy

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 6:35pm

on the defense of the first video's guy, he's used to the 1906, so he was using it at range even though he aknowledged that it isn't that good at range and is better at close-medium range(so i gguess he just plays without thinking)
"I'm just a loot whore."

### stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody

bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

### Quoted from "CobaltRose"

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100

WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif

Victorious

Posts: 1,109

Date of registration
: Jun 24th 2012

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Winner's podium

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 14

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 6:40pm

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

n order to use the Model 8 efficiently, you actually have to use your brain.

Well that just disqualified 95.4% of the player base.
You have just read a Post by The World Champion and now feel smarter for doing so.
-------
Cham·pi·on
noun \Ëˆcham-pÄ“-É™n\

1 : Warrior, Fighter
2 : a militant advocate or defender <a champion of civil rights>
3 : one that does battle for another's rights or honor <God will raise me up a champion — Sir Walter Scott>
4 : a winner of first prize or first place in competition; also : one who shows marked superiority <The champion of the World>

Posts: 895

Date of registration
: Dec 8th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 6:46pm

### Quoted from "VincentNZ"

Of course the potential is great on a per engagement basis, but for a kill scenario you really need an accuarcy of 60%, and not many people get that. Also it is true that often enough you encoutner more than one enemy.

So instead of the vaunted "60%," what % accuracy do you expect the gun should be still useful at?

For the 359RPM Auto-8, it takes 0.8333333333s to shoot its 5rnds. Out of those 5, you need 3 hits to (usually) get the kill. That's where the "60%" comes from.

Instead of that 60%, let's say 33.33%, 1 in 3 hits, because that's my actual current Medic rifle weapon accuracy. I have 33.5% with the Marksman, 31% with Rigotti Optical, 35% with 1906, 31.2% with Mondragon Optical. I only play Operations and CQL. I'm a totally average player in terms of twitch reflexes, so that's why I'm here trying to think my way into giving myself any sort of advantage. They should balance the game around me! Yes, yes they should.

For the M1916 "best Medic rifle," it is 224RPM. 1 in 3 hits, 3BTK, means the shooter shoots 9 rounds before getting the kill. How long does it take for the M1916 to fire 9rnds? 2.4s. TWO-POINT-FOUR SECONDS.

How are you in a heads-up 1v1 situation and STILL ALIVE after 2.4s?

Oh, maybe you're shooting at someone who is not shooting back. Okay, great. You're still total Recon bait, standing there for whole 2.4s.

What about wiping out squads? Again, which squad doesn't fight back as you slooooooooowly plink them all to death for how long? Over 10 seconds?

-----

So what's my point? First of all, "weapon accuracy" as shown in your stats is meaningless when discussing the viability of a weapon. I get WAY BETTER hit rate % when I get the kill, and WAY WORSE % when I don't. Thus, despite that "totally not-viable" 33.5% accuracy, I still managed 3136 of my 7176 Infantry Kills with the Auto-8 Marksman, at 2.36 K/D overall.

Secondly, every weapon have their own benefits and downsides. Do I get annoyed when I use the Autp-8 .35 and 1906 in CQB, don't get the kill after the 5RB, and also couldn't finish the target off with my pistol? Yes, of course. But I also can "get annoyed" when the Auto-8 .25 (and lesser extent M1907) is so useless at range... and when the Rigotti and Mondragon take SO LONG to put in 2x stripper clips... and when enemies kill me when I didn't even get off 2rnds with the M1916.

Do I want the Remington Model 81 Special Police (which is essentially .35 Extended) in the game? Of course! But I understand why it isn't, and will not be. So, just use Symthic to learn the quirks of each weapon, use them to their strengths, avoid their weaknesses, and accept that nothing is perfect all the time.

Pinkie

Posts: 7,809

Date of registration
: Feb 25th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: italy

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 6:58pm

just going to point out how any shot that doesn't hit a target means a miss in the accuracy stat...

basically, if you shoot a lot at planes or go for suppression, you'll have very low accuracy even if you can most times get the required 60% accuracy on human targets.
"I'm just a loot whore."

### stuff mostly unrelated to BF4 that interests nobody

bf4
on 13/05/2016
23rd M320FB user on pc(13/05/16)
rush mode score RANK:2794 TOP:2% OUT OF:215398
obliteration mode scoreRANK:994 TOP:1% OUT OF:159466
handgun medals RANK:2236 TOP:2% OUT OF:143874
longest headshot RANK:9512 TOP:4% OUT OF:257589
recon score RANK:10871 TOP:4% OUT OF:274899
general score per minute RANK:10016 TOP:4% OUT OF:294774

bf3
31/3/2012 4:58:

Revives per assault minute RANK: 6019 TOP: 3%
Headshots / kill percentage RANK:25947 TOP:13%
MVP ribbons RANK:18824 TOP:11%

*= 6 if we not count the EOD BOT headshots

### Quoted from "CobaltRose"

@kataklism

ARGUMENT DESTROYED 100

ENEMY KILLED [REASON] JSLICE20 100

WRITING SPREE STOPPED 500

http://i.imgur.com/4X0321O.gif

Holy War? No Thanks.

Posts: 2,689

Date of registration
: Jul 25th 2013

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 15

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 6:59pm

### Quoted from "VincentNZ"

I used it with a x2 zoom, I believe and never had an issue with sway at all, especially when compared to BAs and I used the weapon at quite long ranges, too. Also the RDS have way more issues with being disorientating, through visual sway and animation. Also with the .35 the usual approach is to fire off the bullets in rapid succession, where sway is not much of an issue, I guess.
Lowest zoom is 2.50x, I find that far, far too much. If someone's close to you and moving, it's a nightmare to track them with high zoom. I usually prefer 1.50x.

Oh yeah than I used 2,5 as well. I see your point, but you could also argue (and that is my case) that the barrel, body of the gun and the horrid ironsights is as hindering in tracking targets as a higher zoom. Probably preference here.

@Veritable

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. You need a 60% accuracy in a kill scenario. Overall you obviously shoot a lot with any weapon where you are not trying to kill, although one would tend to minimise that when using the .35. I was sitting at 30% accuracy on the whole and I tend to shoot at a lot of things. It was also (in the Marksman variant) my favourite weapon in terms of fun and performance, too. The effectiveness drastically improves when playing in a squad, too. Naturally. 30-35% is absolutely usable and reachable with this weapon.

On the other hand though, statistical usage tells you a lot. Often enough if you are an average player some weapons in BF1 are just not very feasible and require a lot of thinking or awareness, something beyond what we had before. Many players, myself included, are not willing to spend hours digging through numbers and putting these numbers into perspective in every engagement. Feel over raw data, at any time.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "VincentNZ" (Feb 19th 2017, 7:12pm)

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,636

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 7:58pm

### Quoted from "Veritable"

So instead of the vaunted "60%," what % accuracy do you expect the gun should be still useful at?

Both of these points are very important.

The thing with the Rem 8 .35 is it's actually very forgiving of misses, despite that seeming counter to its low capacity; since you're unlikely to get two kills with a mag most of the time, really what you have is a kill and two spare shots in case you miss, for every single engagement. And this works because the gun fires so damn fast; it's basically the Automatico of SLRs, in that it doesn't care if you miss a bit. And if you can't land three of five shots in a 1v1, you're probably going to lose that 1v1 with any other weapon anyway. Especially the hilariously slow M1916.

The M1916 requires near-perfect accuracy to be usable, since any missed dramatically lengthen your already-long TTK, whereas the Rem 8 is perfectly happy with just 60% accuracy. If I did my math right, the M1916 fires three shots in 0.804 seconds, while the Rem 8 fires five shots in 0.836 seconds. In a situation where the M1916 user lands all three shots and the Rem 8 user misses two, the M1916 only wins by 0.032 seconds. Effectively identical. The Rem 8 .35 can still tie the M1916 with only 60% accuracy, while the M1916 requires 100%.

----

That's definitely true of the accuracy stat. I fire far too many shots at planes, distant enemies, snipers, or whatever else for it to mean anything; if I think I can do some damage and/or annoy the enemy, I'll shoot at them (other than when trying to be stealthy). Apparently my Rem 8 .35 accuracy stat is a mere 21.3%, but I'm really not that surprised.

On the subject of accuracy though, I tired using the M1907 again, Factory this time instead of Sweeper, and I really did just about as terrible with it as I did the first time. I was in Domination and missing far more shots than I was hitting, even in actual engagements. I distinctly remember firing 7-8 rounds at about 15m and missing all of them, before he entered a building and I just turned around and went somewhere else. Switched back to the Rem 8 .35 next match and did great with it.

I think it's a target tracking / low RoF thing. The lower your rate of fire, the longer you have to keep your aim on target, or at least you have to make sure you're on target on the "rhythm" of your fire rate. I find it far easier to miss with a lower RoF gun, regardless of things like spread or recoil; with a high RoF gun you can simply dump rounds on target once your aim is on them. So on top of a lower accuracy requirement, the Rem 8 .35 also requires less aim ability in general, mainly target tracking.
Who Enjoys, Wins

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "BleedingUranium" (Feb 19th 2017, 8:05pm)

thank mr skeltal

Posts: 214

Date of registration
: Dec 17th 2016

Platform: PC

Location: Kauai

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 8:35pm

I think the reason it's disliked by Youtubers is because it is not "pub friendly" in 2 examples. 1 is it can't be used effectively by everyone like past bestguns and though they like to convey their skill I also think they don't want to alienate their viewer. The 2nd reason(and what I believe is the actual reason they don't use them) is that they don't work as well for "pubstomping" where the players are so bad they pose very little threat, why would you use a gun that can beat out most other weapons TTK wise but can't engage multiple enemies when you could clear whole bunkers of players who play like they are legally blind, deaf and have the reaction time of an 80 year old with the Hellriegel or Selbstlader M1916?
I don't think Levelcap(he even admitted the 1906 would probably be the best gun for 5v5) or X-factorgamig lack the skill to use it, they just don't need it for their pubstomp gameplay videos.

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 8:57pm

That still doesn't give them the right to spread the misinformation that the 5 round SLRs are bad overall. They need to highlight why it is bad for their own purposes, not mislead by saying they come up short in every possible manner. This is just completely false. The 5-rounders may not be as useful for their gameplay, but they dominate in terms of raw stats. It's fine if they say, "I don't like the 5-rounders because they don't suit my playstyle," but flat out wrong to state, "the 5-rounders are bad, don't use them." Video titles are, for the most part, the primary focus of what the content actually consists of. You shouldn't have to look past the title to see what information is within the video.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 9:07pm

The Model 8 and 1906 have the unique property of actually becoming worse the lower the skill of the enemy. If the enemy is bad enough such that a Cei-Rigotti is enough in order to win 1v1s, then there is no real reason to use the Model 8.

It's not the best weapon in all scenarios, however, the situation in which the Model 8 is truly the bestgun (1v1 in CQB) occurs far more often than the situation where the M1916 is the best (shooting at 4+ clueless enemies).

However, to call it the worst SLR in the game is laughably wrong, and subsequently calling the M1916 the best SLR in the game leaves me in fits of giggles.
something something Model 8 bestgun

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

### Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

### Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

thank mr skeltal

Posts: 214

Date of registration
: Dec 17th 2016

Platform: PC

Location: Kauai

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Sunday, February 19th 2017, 9:08pm

But that means they can't use the title "WORST GUN IN BF1!?!?!?!".
I won't deny that their videos on the subject are terrible and damaging to the community but what do you expect from a guy who has titles like this Is Battlefield 1 Dying? - YouTube?