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VincentNZ

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11

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 12:04am

They are for operators to boost their stats, basically. That is because they have incredible firepower, while being the safest vehicle around. Killstreaks from 6 to 30 are really no problem at all depending on the seat you have.

As for turning the tide mechanism, it is a failure. Right now a behemoth is a crutch for frustrated players and something that is supposed to hide how unbalanced the average round is. So if a behemoth brings the losing team up to 150 ticket difference at the end (which is still not a close game at all) everybody instinctively feels better as when the round ended 1000-600. It is a psychological feature more or less.

However there have been a couple of times where the behemoth has indeed turned the tide. Although it is hard to determine if this is not also caused by new players on the server, a teambalance of some sort, or a mass disconnect. It is such a rare occassion, that the behemoth, might just be one of many points that turned the round.

It is true though that any behemoth has the potential to decide rounds. With no communication, coordination and since you can not reliably spawn into them and since spotting is a mess (which they heavily rely on) their impact is irrelevant. Also balance is really tricky here, because we have three differen behemoths on many different maps.

I'd would have rather liked to see DICE polishing the BF4 ticket system instead of adding this feature, because the behemoth achieves nothing that the right guy in a tank could not achieve. Just give tankmayvin an A7 and there you have your own pocket behemoth on every map.

NoctyrneSAGA

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12

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 12:10am

Except if they are losing with tankmayvin inside the A7V, the additional firepower brought by the Behemoth is supposed to help.

Again, it doesn't matter how powerful the Behemoth is if its operators don't know how to use it.

And the whole purpose of the Behemoth is to prevent a complete blowout from happening. It is still dependent on operators capitalizing on it.

It isn't just supposed to "hide" the imbalance. It is supposed to reverse it.
Data Browser

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13

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 12:20am

Right now a behemoth is a crutch for frustrated players and something that is supposed to hide how unbalanced the average round is.

And why is this? Flag assets. Instead of removing the problem DICE implemented the Behemoth, on Conquest that is. It is great for marketing, don't get me wrong. The idea of a massive vehicle that can, rarely, assist the losing team (unless it's Operations) to possibly come back and win is a decent selling point. But unless the operators are competent, they just serve as damage sponges. The Airship is the most liable Behemoth with an idiot pilot, and following close behind is the Armored Train if the conductor doesn't move up enough for his gunners to see or hit targets.

The Behemoths are actually beneficial on Operations because of the frontlines mechanic the mode features. Infantry are more concentrated in higher volumes allowing the specific Behemoth to actually put a dent in enemy lines allowing attackers to push more effectively.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 3,640

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14

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 12:24am

Seeing as they're clearly not having the intended effect, something needs to be adjusted. While buffing them is a good idea in a few areas, the most damning issue has to be the 150 ticket difference needed to spawn them. A 150 ticket difference in BF1 is huge, and if a team is losing by that much, they're probably also unlikely to also be skilled enough to use a Behemoth to great enough effect to come back from that. That's the key point and paradox here: You cannot make Behemoths especially reliant on coordination, because they're being given to the team that's worse.

That would be like giving an entire team Rem 8 .35s when they're losing, because they're "the best guns in the game" and will therefore facilitate a comeback. Except they won't, and may even cause the opposite effect, because you're making the skill requirement of the tool that's supposed to help the losing team, the worse team, too high. I don't think the Behemoths are quite as bad as that balance-wise, but it's important to remember they need to be easy to use and usable with no team coordination, but still being very effective like that, to actually be relevant.


But coming back to the main point, that 150 ticket difference is really too much, especially that's when it starts coming in, after which it has to enter the map and become controllable, and then only after that can it be moved to a relevant position, which is then well over a 150 ticket difference. They simply enter the match too late to be relevant.
Who Enjoys, Wins

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15

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 1:06am

the most damning issue has to be the 150 ticket difference needed to spawn them. A 150 ticket difference in BF1 is huge, and if a team is losing by that much, they're probably also unlikely to also be skilled enough to use a Behemoth to great enough effect to come back from that. That's the key point and paradox here: You cannot make Behemoths especially reliant on coordination, because they're being given to the team that's worse.

Brilliant. And since teams can still accrue points by simply owning flags the team up by 150+ tickets doesn't even need major or complete control of the map to win. Also, if a team is that much worse than the other then the team balancing itself is in question. It's not guaranteed that the team balancing algorithm is flawed, but it could be a factor.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


  • "sgtCrookyGrin" started this thread

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16

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 1:54am

I'm still questioning one thing we can't technically confirm: Are we right that Behemoths aren't having the intended effect of being a perpetual comeback mechanic?

Most, if not all of us, agree that Behemoths aren't great at countering slippery slope but that's "our" experiences so far. Do we have hard data to support the claim that they don't or do work? I'd like to figure that out if it's at all possible because from here on out everything we're saying isn't backed up with evidence.

If we were to record 100 games and count all the times the Behemoth made a comeback in a standard pub setting it would be evidence but I doubt 100 games represents the real world data. I'm certain DICE has access to these numbers but can we get said numbers or must we create our own? Shouldn't be hard unless you really hate playing BF1 but I think we're here because we "relatively" enjoy BF1 so far.

I'm going to get started on this over the weekend and see what happens, those who wish to join are welcome because, well, it's playing BF1 except writing down whether or not the Behemoth won right?... (In other words, for science!!!)

*EDIT* Gamemodes are also necessary to consider since attackers are heavily biased on Operations right?

NoctyrneSAGA

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17

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 2:01am

@sgtCrookyGrin

When we have a match between 2 teams that are of equal or near-equal skill, then we will know.

Right now, the matchmaker doesn't seem to be working well in terms of making sure the competence of each team is about the same.

Even then, two teams of equal incompetence won't provide any meaningful conclusions.

In short, we'll have to wait for competitive Battlefield 1 with teams playing their hardest to win before we'll know.
Data Browser

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18

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 2:14am

No we won't. A long term analysis of games so far is plenty to show whether Behemoths are having the intended effect. That's "having", in present tense, meaning how they actually perform in normal matches, not "whether they have the potential to have the intended effect".

I believe some people have already been doing work on this, though I don't have the threads saved.
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NoctyrneSAGA

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19

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 2:23am

A long term analysis of incompetent teams is only going to reveal that the team's incompetence is preventing them from winning whether the Behemoth is present or not.
Data Browser

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"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

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20

Thursday, February 9th 2017, 2:30am

That's funny, I thought I already addressed this specifically so this line of thought wouldn't come up. Behemoths are designed to be used by the losing, and therefore worse team. They have to be able to make a comeback when used by worse players. In real, actual matches.

Once 32v32 comp matches are actually running we can talk about comp play. Until then, and possibly even after that point, the real game is an average pub match, and the game must function for that purpose.
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