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## Thoughts on the Elite classes

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Tuesday, February 7th 2017, 8:06pm

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

Both the sentries and the flamer are vulnerable to getting swarmed by the things they can fight (infantry)

The tank hunter, however, can sit back with impunity and kill every single vehicle on the enemy team.

What I'm getting out of this is that the Tank Hunter is the only one that can really do its job.

It's supposed to be a hard counter to vehicles, that vehicles themselves have a very tough time killing or escaping from. Not all that different from killing Medics or Scouts with a Tank, and an Assault from outside CQB. Generally speaking, a competent Tank Hunter will wipe the enemy team's vehicles off the map, and that's the whole idea.
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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 1:56am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

Both the sentries and the flamer are vulnerable to getting swarmed by the things they can fight (infantry)

The tank hunter, however, can sit back with impunity and kill every single vehicle on the enemy team.

What I'm getting out of this is that the Tank Hunter is the only one that can really do its job.

It's supposed to be a hard counter to vehicles, that vehicles themselves have a very tough time killing or escaping from. Not all that different from killing Medics or Scouts with a Tank, and an Assault from outside CQB. Generally speaking, a competent Tank Hunter will wipe the enemy team's vehicles off the map, and that's the whole idea.
This goes back to a very basic question: what is the purpose of the Elite classes? What do they actually do in practice?

The answer is that they are disruptive RNG. For infantry it doesn't matter, the Sentries eat a few infantry and then die generally.

For vehicles it does matter, the TH can eat all a teams armor and then munch a few planes. To use an example: if a team asserts control of their two gimmes plus the two blimp flags on Giant's Shadow. The TH can operate from complete cover and just plink even fast movers trying to flank. Or he gets Trench darted, run over by cav or double tapped by a sniper, or stompted by a squad attacking the specific flag and does utterly nothing.

I don't see they fit all that well in the overall balancing scheme of the game. I don't really see the contribution of the elite classes relative to their inherent issues being very worthwhile.

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:24am

How is that in any way RNG? Or how is it, for that matter, less fair than tanks or planes?

Tanks and Planes spawn at home base, cannot be selected by the enemy team, are selected while dead and therefore cannot be interfered with (apart from any friendlies also camping the spawn menu). Elites, on the other hand, spawn at actual locations on the map that require team control, can be picked up by anyone, and must be "selected" in person by the player intending to use it, who is both before and after at risk of being killed. Meanwhile, tankers and pilots get to lazily sit around the spawn screen without a care in the world and spawn their large, very powerful asset in the safety of their home base, to move up into the battle at their leisure.

I also don't see complaints about Assaults, of which any member of the enemy team can choose to be at any time, from any location they control or have presence, including from a plane. That's infinitely more "RNG", to use that term, than the Elites.

And I further don't see complains about Field Guns, probably because they're stationary (and therefore avoidable and predictable) and generally lose a 1v1 to a tank anyway.

The Tank Hunter is the only true hard counter to tanks in the game, that isn't another tank itself. This is a good thing.
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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 5:44am

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

How is that in any way RNG? Or how is it, for that matter, less fair than tanks or planes?

Tanks and Planes spawn at home base, cannot be selected by the enemy team, are selected while dead and therefore cannot be interfered with (apart from any friendlies also camping the spawn menu). Elites, on the other hand, spawn at actual locations on the map that require team control, can be picked up by anyone, and must be "selected" in person by the player intending to use it, who is both before and after at risk of being killed. Meanwhile, tankers and pilots get to lazily sit around the spawn screen without a care in the world and spawn their large, very powerful asset in the safety of their home base, to move up into the battle at their leisure.

I also don't see complaints about Assaults, of which any member of the enemy team can choose to be at any time, from any location they control or have presence, including from a plane. That's infinitely more "RNG", to use that term, than the Elites.

And I further don't see complains about Field Guns, probably because they're stationary (and therefore avoidable and predictable) and generally lose a 1v1 to a tank anyway.

The Tank Hunter is the only true hard counter to tanks in the game, that isn't another tank itself. This is a good thing.
You just specifically said why it's RNG: sometimes you pick up the kit and evac it to someplace useful, sometimes you get swamped by infy, or run down by cav or trench darted.

Unlike vehicles which are easily kept track of (they spot when firing on the map), and which come from predictable locations in a predictable fashion (barring bugs), the elites aren't obviously timed because of flag swaps and the like.

The elites effectiveness and presence boils down to what amounts to RNG in their usage and impact. I think they contribute very little to the overall game as a result other than being a rogue element.

Field guns and long range useage of the rocket gun actually requires a modicum of skill. The TH rifle is point and shoot with basically 100% accuracy.

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 5:49am

That's not RNG, not even close; that's uncertainty. They spawn at preset locations on timers. If your team can't hold the location it spawns and take it, and they can't kill an enemy who picks it up, the enemy team gets it. That's not RNG in the slightest. You and/or your teammates screwed up or were outplayed, and now the enemy has an advantage, simple as that. Some things are simply beyond your personal control, and that's a good thing.
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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 6:08am

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

That's not RNG, not even close; that's uncertainty. They spawn at preset locations on timers. If your team can't hold the location it spawns and take it, and they can't kill an enemy who picks it up, the enemy team gets it. That's not RNG in the slightest. You and/or your teammates screwed up or were outplayed, and now the enemy has an advantage, simple as that. Some things are simply beyond your personal control, and that's a good thing.
Whether you can maneuver to someplace useful or you get run down by cav or trench darted is, practically speaking, random. So is say getting a horse from a dead cav at the same time as your tank hunter spawns so you also have mobility and free ammo is also, practically speaking, random.

You still didn't answer my question: what is the practical purpose of the Elites? What mechanic do they contribute to the game?

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 6:23am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

what is the practical purpose of the Elites? What mechanic do they contribute to the game?

To give the casual player a fighting chance against more experienced players. Stat padding tools. Or they're a gimmick. Battle Pickups in BF4: gimmick. Elites in BF1: slightly more efficient gimmicks, but gimmicks nonetheless.

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

Also, no one seems to bat an eye when tankers or pilots go, like 20 or 30 to just a couple deaths

What?! I loathe it! If I see someone dominating in a tank, you can bet that I'll do everything in my power to take it out or facilitate taking it out. If I see someone dominating in a plane, you can bet that I'll do everything in my power to take it out or facilitate taking it out. Those kinds of players are high priority targets who can actually influence the outcome of a match over the whole period of the match because tanks have oodles of armor and planes having super high mobility, both of these corresponding aspects extend their lifetimes. Elites? Why they are so weak in comparison since they can be killed relatively easily even as a lone infantryman,you can't reliably do that against tanks and planes.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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### Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2\$ tho

### My "Contributions"

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Feb 8th 2017, 6:34am)

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 6:28am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

Whether you can maneuver to someplace useful or you get run down by cav or trench darted is, practically speaking, random. So is say getting a horse from a dead cav at the same time as your tank hunter spawns so you also have mobility and free ammo is also, practically speaking, random.

You still didn't answer my question: what is the practical purpose of the Elites? What mechanic do they contribute to the game?

If you're going to argue it like that then basically everything in any game is random. Or rather, it's hectic, confusing, often unpredictable, and no individual player can keep track of everything going on at once. And that's fine, you're not supposed to.

Same as many other force multipliers, like horses, jeeps, armoured cars, tanks, or planes. One doesn't have to be justified any more than the rest just because people don't like it. They also, ideally, provide hard counters to certain tactics and enemy types. The Tank Hunter is by far the best at his role (which is why we've been talking about ways to improve the others), which is the hard counter basically every single vehicle the enemy team has. Which is fine, because he's still a squishy solider, even if he has a little more health.

What I'm getting out of this is that you have a problem with him because you think you should be able to predict and keep track of every threat to you, and not have any form of hard counter that you effectively can't fight. But every rock has a paper.
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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 6:33am

### Quoted from "tankmayvin"

what is the practical purpose of the Elites? What mechanic do they contribute to the game?

To give the casual player a fighting chance against more experienced players. Stat padding tools. Or they're a gimmick. Battle Pickups in BF4: gimmick. Elites in BF1: slightly more efficient gimmicks, but gimmicks nonetheless.
Yes, that is precisely what I was getting at.

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 6:48am

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

What?! I loathe it! If I see someone dominating in a tank, you can bet that I'll do everything in my power to take it out or facilitate taking it out. If I see someone dominating in a plane, you can bet that I'll do everything in my power to take it out or facilitate taking it out. Those kinds of players are high priority targets who can actually influence the outcome of a match over the whole period of the match because tanks have oodles of armor and planes having super high mobility, both of these corresponding aspects extend their lifetimes. Elites? Why they are so weak in comparison since they can be killed relatively easily even as a lone infantryman,you can't reliably do that against tanks and planes.

Okay then, let's try a new angle here. What do tanks fear? Not "what can fight tanks?", I mean fear. What kills tanks so well that the tankers' only real options are to massively outplay their opponent (huge skill difference), or avoid the fight?

Infantry? Not really, unless mobbed. Even then, in a standard comm-less pub match that's not going to happen too often unless the tanker overextends (read: counters himself by being bad).

Planes? Ideally they would, with the whole "Planes beat Tanks beat Infantry beat Planes" R-P-S circle, but nope. Tanks can swat planes out of the air no problem, it's hilariously easy, but planes killing tanks? The standard Bomber can, and there's also the only-decent-and-sucks-at-everything-else Tank Hunter plane, but otherwise no, tanks really don't care about planes.

Other tanks? A good A7V driver only really fears the Tank Hunter Landship. And that's a double problem. Not only is the most effective anti-tank tool... a tank itself, but it's the tank that requires at least two, ideally three on-comms players to actually use in that role. So you counter a tank with another tank (breaking one of the most basic rules of RTS/counter-unit design), which still leaves a tank in play, and the counter requires unlikely coordination just to kill a lone tanker. That's incredibly backwards.

And that's where the Tank Hunter Elite comes in. He counters tanks, and does it exceptionally well. He's a model example of a hard counter. The key concept behind a counter is that they counter, full stop. However, the other key trait of a counter is that they're far more specialized than the thing they're killing, and on that front the Tank Hunter may be too effective vs infantry with his Sawed Off, meaning in turn the Tank Hunter doesn't fear much.

If the Tank Hunter had a pistol instead, or even no sidearm at all, I think people would be happier with him.
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