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LucidNonsenze

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31

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 1:40am

So somehow it is impossible to dodge shots from a BAR?

Considering those muzzle velocities, the difference in displacement afforded for the target between 740m/s and 820m/s is negligible. We are talking about a difference of 0.23m vs 0.21m walking for a target at 50m. The difference is proportional when sprinting but missing because of two centimeters is not a compelling argument in favor of 840m/s.

Introducing players introduces human error. There is a reason why this website prefers the weapon's stats and ignores players.
What about the 20% higher drag on the huot?

To me Huot seems very average, it's not terrible but I'd rather use the Benet Mercie every time.

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NoctyrneSAGA

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32

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 1:47am

@LucidNonsenze

Drag's effects really only have an influence at longer ranges.

If we're talking about ranges within 60m, I don't see it being influential enough to be an entire torso width.

A very quick look with Miffyli's drag modeler shows that the two are pretty much in line with each other at 50m.

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 1:53am

More cherry picking.


Have you not stated yourself (repeatedly) that 50m is midrange?

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34

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 2:07am

@Oak_Beard

LucidNonsenze wanted to know the effects of drag. I showed it to him.

As you can see on the chart, drag only makes a visible difference at ~60-75m.

Since 50m is within 60m, quite obviously drag doesn't have a big impact.

Yes, 50m is mid-range. Where did I say it was long range?



At mid-range the Huot already has a hitrate advantage over the BAR.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to look good for the BAR at even longer ranges.



Did you not read the part where I said the difference is proportional if you add the sprint multiplier?

Let's take the difference of ~2cm and multiply it by the sprint multiplier of 1.775x.

Sprinting makes the difference ~3.55cm. Still not anywhere close to the width of the torso.



The MG15 has over 4x the hRec of the Huot and 1.34x that of the BAR. I think the answer is pretty obvious here.

No, it won't be a suitable replacement. Yes, you get more bullets. No, they will not be as likely to hit.



You should probably put some more effort into reading what I wrote because it is clear you haven't.

You cannot have an intelligent discussion if you are not even properly reading what is being written.
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35

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 2:37am



You cannot have an intelligent discussion if you are not even properly reading what is being written.
The hypocrisy of this statement is mind-boggling.


At least three times on the previous page, it was mentioned how ridiculous it is that you'd compare the Huot to the BAR.

And yet even in your most recent post, what do we get? BAR comparisons.



Other stuff you apparently haven't "properly read":


"Can anyone link me to stats that show someone outperforming the other LMGs with the Huot, since it's such a "skill cannon"?"


"At what range does it make sense to stop trying to stand and kill with the Huot, and instead use the bipod?"

[list][/list]

Edit: as to your choice of 50m, I thought it was understood that the Huot, if good for anything, was supposed to excel at "long range".

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Oak_Beard" (Feb 8th 2017, 2:45am)


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36

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:33am

The Huot is a crappy cross between the BM, Lewis, and Madsen. It's average in the worst possible way.

Sure it's a gun, a gun that isn't the Kolibri, which means it can kill people. You could go on huge killstreaks and do really well with it if you're skilled enough. But that doesn't mean it's useful or viable. It doesn't make the cherry-picked, extremely arbitrary, and ultimately useless-in-practice examples of situations where it's some fraction amount better than the competition actually mean a damn.
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37

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:42am

Other stuff you apparently haven't "properly read":


"Can anyone link me to stats that show someone outperforming the other LMGs with the Huot, since it's such a "skill cannon"?"


"At what range does it make sense to stop trying to stand and kill with the Huot, and instead use the bipod?"

[list][/list]

Edit: as to your choice of 50m, I thought it was understood that the Huot, if good for anything, was supposed to excel at "long range".
Statistics of a player outplaying others with the Huot (or any weapon, for that matter) are pointless for determining how good the weapon actually is. Such data only tells you how good the player is at the game, not the actual performance of the weapon. If you want actual evidence demonstrating what the Huot is good at and why it's a skill cannon, re-read over Noctyrne's statistics and do the math.


One should only use bipods on LMG's if they do not wish to deal with recoil control and want to fire at minSpread immediately and continuously. As in, rarely, for skilled players who know how to manage recoil and can fire LMG's accurately regardless of the spread windup. This is true regardless of the range one wants to play at.


Just because the Huot excels at long-range does not mean it's medium-range capabilities are terrible. Again, its fantastic ADS minSpread means it can hit more shots at 50m than the BAR and MG15, which will miss much more often and have longer times to kill, despite their higher rates of fire. The latter two weapons are geared for slightly closer engagement distances.

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38

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:43am

Symthic has tools available to compare multiple weapons based on their accuracy (everything associated with spread and recoil including recovery rates), time to kill, bullets to kill, and corresponding damage models with external sources like Hitrater to determine practical TTK. All of these aspects are necessary in conjunction to determine what ranges the available MGs and their variations will be best at. Choosing one aspect alone such as bullets to kill is irrelevant at ranges beyond close quarters because the hit rate is based on the level of accuracy that the weapon can accomplish. Similarly, time to kill is only as effective as the spread and recoil patterns permit.

Despite the obvious slow rate of fire the Huot encompasses, it outperforms its competitors at its ideal range because of the sheer accuracy, putting more shots on the target and not near the target. The Huot does not have a comparable muzzle velocity, drag coefficient, or min. damage to other MGs because of the same reason the Autoloading 8 .35 only has 5 rounds; it would be too good, at least in my estimation.

Imagine it had an 800+m/s velocity and a 17.5 min. damage with its already outstanding stats. Sure it fires at a measly 475 RPM, but with its insane accuracy of having almost negligible horizontal recoil, easily compensated vertical recoil, low min. spread and very quick negative spread increase/ spread recovery it woud have the best opportunity to kill in the first 6 shots at 31+m. You'd be bound to miss a few times with the other MGs not based on spread stats alone, but horizontal recoil amplitudes as well. Higher fire rates only quickens the inevitable miss of the next shot at this range.

The other MGs need higher velocities and min. damages because of their inferior accuracy, otherwise they couldn't compete with the Huot at longer than close range. A Huot user would win almost every time at medium or long range range (unless it does already, I haven't compared the hit rate and practical TTK here) if they did not, this is solely on the fact that it is the most accurate MG. It isn't just about putting higher damage down range, but effective damage (hits) down range. What good is higher or quicker damage if you're less likely to hit your target?
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Feb 8th 2017, 3:53am)


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39

Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:48am

The Huot is a crappy cross between the BM, Lewis, and Madsen. It's average in the worst possible way.

Sure it's a gun, a gun that isn't the Kolibri, which means it can kill people. You could go on huge killstreaks and do really well with it if you're skilled enough. But that doesn't mean it's useful or viable. It doesn't make the cherry-picked, extremely arbitrary, and ultimately useless-in-practice examples of situations where it's some fraction amount better than the competition actually mean a damn.
The evidence that the Huot is good and viable is here. The confirmation of this by skilled players (e.g. MarbleDuck's subtle analyses) is present.

The number of players who can use it effectively in-practice are few, because they're not skilled enough yet to know how to use them properly. Apparently, people do not put enough faith into factual statistics to understand why Battlefield One's gun balance is so neat.

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Wednesday, February 8th 2017, 3:48am

"Can anyone link me to stats that show someone outperforming the other LMGs with the Huot, since it's such a "skill cannon"?"


Bringing in player profiles and played rounds, specifically stats and skill level, into balance discussion is bad practice for the reasons already stated and should not be done. Any argument based on that will not be tolerated.

That being said, other LMG options lose so much potential damage due to accuracy issues beyond close range that the Huot has a statistical advantage.
Specifically, the MG15 has around 40% accuracy at 50m, BAR sits around 53% while the Huot sits at 95% accuracy for a burst length of 10 shots. For a more proper comparison, the Benet-M is around 80% in the accuracy packages. This is from a simulation assuming perfectly compensated shots. That is to say, this is the maximum performance of these guns at that range.
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