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## When is a gun useless?

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Heretic

Posts: 210

Date of registration
: Dec 21st 2016

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Spokane, WA, USA

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Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 2:19am

### When is a gun useless?

Technical discussion on the merits of weapons is the main purpose of these forums. I do however have one thing that I am curious about
I see people in the forums taking the role of devil's advocate in defense of certain weapons. the auto 8 .35 is a great example. It is one of the least used weapon in BF1 but
I see alot of people who defend it.Another example is my post a month ago claiming that the m1907 factory has very little benefit to merit its use and some people thought otherwise. Earlier today there was discussion on the merits of a possible m1903 infantry.

So my question is, when do little positive quirks warrant use of an otherwise overlooked gun? When on paper does a gun look fine but in practice, It is impractical and has too little benefit or too much of some other hindrance to warrant use?
Official heretic of the Symthic forums. Avid M1907 factory user and complete casual pleb.
Iplaysgames96 - Profile Overview - Battlefield 1 Tracker

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,630

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

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Reputation modifier: 16

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 2:25am

### Quoted from "Iplaysgames96"

m1907 factory

I'm glad you mentioned this because as I see it, it has to be one of the most questionable variants in the game.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Heretic

Posts: 210

Date of registration
: Dec 21st 2016

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Spokane, WA, USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 2:32am

### Quoted from "Iplaysgames96"

m1907 factory

I'm glad you mentioned this because as I see it, it has to be one of the most questionable variants in the game.
Honestly, Im just going to quote my OP from that thread because It got uber derailed

So IMHO the sweeper is the only variant that is practical to use with the m1907 SL. Realistically and for all practical purposes there are no actual benefits to using the factory or trench variants.

So with some research done on real IRL weapons I found this weapon: Winchester Model 1910 - Wikipedia
The M1910 SL is basically the same exact gun as the m1907 but fires the more powerful .401 calibre bullet. Alongside the m1907, the m1910 served in the french and russian military.

Though the factory magazine size was 4 rounds, both the Russians and in particular the french made domestic manufactured extended 8 round magazines
http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.co…tended-mag-1910

So my suggestion would be to keep the m1907 sweeper the same but transform the m107 factory and trench variants into the m1910 factory and trench. Because externally the m1907 and m1910 are the same other than the magazine, All DICE would have to do is shorten the magazine on the 3d model.

Here is how I would balance it: Max damage 38-28 (same as cei rigotti)
Magazine size: 8
Official heretic of the Symthic forums. Avid M1907 factory user and complete casual pleb.
Iplaysgames96 - Profile Overview - Battlefield 1 Tracker

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: Mar 19th 2014

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Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 2:48am

While a nice idea, that would require model and animation changes.

As for variants currently in the game: Storm is out, seeing as Sweeper fills the ease-of-use/reduced recoil role. Outside of Factory, that leaves versions with optics, so Optical, Marksman, or Sniper. The latter two would be silly, so Optical. Without running the numbers, that does seem like it would be an improvement, at least in terms of diversity and lack of redundancy.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Heretic

Posts: 210

Date of registration
: Dec 21st 2016

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Spokane, WA, USA

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Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 2:53am

### Quoted from "BleedingUranium"

While a nice idea, that would require model and animation changes.

As for variants currently in the game: Storm is out, seeing as Sweeper fills the ease-of-use/reduced recoil role. Outside of Factory, that leaves versions with optics, so Optical, Marksman, or Sniper. The latter two would be silly, so Optical. Without running the numbers, that does seem like it would be an improvement, at least in terms of diversity and lack of redundancy.

[url=http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu349/hauptfeldwebel/Win1910.jpg]http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu349/hauptfeldwebel/Win1910.jpg
[/url]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-P_jeQNrtsuM/T1…er_m07_600w.jpg

The two are so close the model change would be near minute. Also, in the alpha, the m1907 had the model for a 10 round magazine. in the IRL pictures, both the m1910's 8 round mag (top) and the m1907's 10 round mag (bottom) are about the same exact size. So all DICE would have to do is retrieve the 10 round mag model from the alpha and re texture the magazine. The models and animations for the rifles do not have to be changed at all because the are externally identical

Also you could just call it the m1907SL .401 Factory. Even though not historically correct, they could just implement it the exact same
Official heretic of the Symthic forums. Avid M1907 factory user and complete casual pleb.
Iplaysgames96 - Profile Overview - Battlefield 1 Tracker

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: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

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Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 3:04am

The Auto .35's lack of use is due to players being lazy and not adapting. The most popular SLR, and one hailed to be the best by many players, is the 1916. If you ask why, they will mostly point out the large magazine as the reason why it is the only "acceptable" SLR.

What is happening here is that players have an expectation that the SLRs are supposed to be DMRs and only the 1916 closely resembles them. However, the cost of that huge magazine is the worst fire rate in the class. The weapon has enough bullets to outlast every other weapon in a prolonged fight. But the Auto .35's damage output is so high, that prolonged fight simply won't happen.

The critics of the Auto .35 and 1906 insist that the weapon needs a 60% accuracy to be used well and then point to the average 20% accuracy of most players as evidence that the idea of the 5 round SLR is not being actualized.

What these people are missing is that a global accuracy stat is not a relevant indicator of its accuracy requirement. Players need 60% accuracy in a SINGLE engagement. Not for their entire playtime with the weapon.

The reason why some weapons are used more than others is because players have a preconceived notion as to how weapons should function.

The MG15 and Lewis Suppressive are "the only LMGs because of their huge magazines" or the Automatico and Hellriegel "is the only SMG because of the fast fire rate."

The 1916 is "the only SLR because it resembles a DMR."

Of course, this means they completely miss out on hidden beauties like the 1906 and Auto .35.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Heretic

Posts: 210

Date of registration
: Dec 21st 2016

Platform: Xbox One

Location: Spokane, WA, USA

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Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 3:06am

### Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Of course, this means they completely miss out on hidden beauties like the 1906 and Auto .35.
Oh well. More hidden gems for me Kappa
Official heretic of the Symthic forums. Avid M1907 factory user and complete casual pleb.
Iplaysgames96 - Profile Overview - Battlefield 1 Tracker

Posts: 105

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: Oct 28th 2016

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Location: California

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Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 3:10am

I can't argue with the questionable nature of the Factory variant weapons in the game. The most relevant statistical benefit offered with the weapon, I find, is its greater spread decrease per shot, allowing for faster accurate follow up shots. The greater recoil decrease is simply icing on the cake, a small merit for ease of use.

However, I don't see why any skilled player should put extended time and investment into learning to use the M1907 Sweeper variant. The reduced upwards recoil does not offer much benefit because of how easy it is to control upwards recoil. After enough practice and experience with any weapon, upwards recoil control simply becomes an afterthought. A player is better off learning how to use the Factory and Trench variants of the M1907 over the Sweeper.

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Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 3:13am

Sweeper = reduced vRecoil and hipfire SIPS
Storm = reduced vRecoil and hRecoil
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.

Are you a scrub?

### Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it dies™.

Posts: 3,292

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: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 4:34am

### Quoted from "Iplaysgames96"

the auto 8 .35 is a great example. It is one of the least used weapon in BF1 but
I see alot of people who defend it.

### Quoted from "JSLICE20"

A highly skilled player can enable themselves to win 1 vs. 2 or 3, etc. engagements with the Model 8 through good positioning and target prioritization. Take one guy out, take cover, reload, and continue the cycle until the opposition is dead. The idea is comprehensive, but leaves the user to execute the process as efficiently as possible. The ammo capacity only allots the user to kill a max 2 healthy players with 4 headshots, but realistically implies that only one healthy target can be engaged at one time.

This fact is why the gun is not considered overpowered, because in other situations outside of the proposed 55m other weapons are actually relevant to the game and not obsolete (unlike BF3's M16A3; that gun pretty much rendered every other available gun pointless in a competitive sense). This means that another 5 bullet stripper clip would make it - bar none - the best Self Loading Rifle, possibly gun, in the game.

Its ammo capacity is a deterrent for casual and pub players who have little to no comprehension of the weapon's damage potential, but is in and of itself why it is not the equivalent of the M16A3 of BF1; a weapon whose stats suggest an overpowered platform, but limited just enough through how much damage one can dish out before reloading. It's rather brilliant.

### Quoted from "Iplaysgames96"

Another example is my post a month ago claiming that the m1907 factory has very little benefit to merit its use and some people thought otherwise.

Factory presets inherently have the benefit of a higher Spread decrease per shot value and faster Recoil recovery as SomeRandomGuy illustrated.

The M1907 is a Close Quarters based Self Loading Rifle where fire rate is of great importance. Both a higher Spread decrease per shot value and faster Recoil recovery will serve to not only make follow up shots more accurate, but enable quicker follow up shots. I think that's self-explanatory as to why those two facets are good for Close-range engagements.

### Quoted from "Iplaysgames96"

Realistically and for all practical purposes there are no actual benefits to using the...trench variants.

The same principle applies to the Factory for the M1907: as a Close Quarters based option we want it to perform well in that style of engagement. The Trench preset is specifically suited for the engagements that one will need to force to take advantage of the M1907's role. So the significantly improved Hip-fire is obviously beneficial here to support that role.

The Sweeper...its only technical purpose is to serve as an ease of use option. Once the player gets better, they should look to the other variants to improve in effectiveness.

That brings us to the initial question: When is a gun useless?

A weapon reverts to uselessness once the player's skill exceeds the point of requiring ease of use options to be successful; once they have learned the ability to use skill-based weapons more efficiently than the ease of use alternatives. In layman's terms, when one 'gits gud.'
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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