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The Argument for Large Team Competitive play.

Posts: 127

Date of registration
: Aug 24th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: QLD, Australia/ NC, USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 9:05am

The Argument for Large Team Competitive play.

This is a topic I've been wishing to get off my chest for a while now.
Firstly I'd like to state that it is not a rebuke against Marble or the views of other experienced competitive players. Perhaps my idea is merely a pipe dream or wishful thinking in FPS gaming and resides only IRL.

I believe that it is possible to have competitive ladders on large teams of 32. And yes it will be harder for a player of great personal skill to dictate the outcomes of the match but it will be a test of other factors.

Rather than listing out and elaborating on each aspect and making this look like a field manual let me provide a word picture of my idea of the perfect scenario for a large server competitive match.

Game type - Operations.

Common setups for both defense and offense:

Each callsign a 4 man fire team:
For the general squad, 1 or 2 assault, 1 or 2 medic, 1 support with a more mobile LMG such as the madsen or BAR.

2 fire team forms a assault section.

3 of these assault sects will total 24 players.

Leaves 8.

a fire support squad with 3 supports with long ranged MGs and mortars and a scout preferably with a periscope.

the last 4 are a squad of vehicle specialist.

Communications wise on PC it should be easy with teamspeak. For myself on PS4 the way I figured would be each assault section will be in a party of 8, support section in a party of 4, vehicles also in a party of 4.
Then with teamspeak (simple with a smartphone) an overall commander has coms with a section leader in each of these parties, ideally he should be the recon from support section.

With this setup many doctrinal tactics could be explored.

Here's the out line of a basic attack.

1. Command decides to attack objective A first.

2. Fire support hit objective A, Scout/Cmdr spots out targets that he can see.

3. 1 section (A & B) moves up along B side until they can effectively place fire upon A, takes cover and starts suppressing.

4. 2 section (C & D) rather than have to slip and slide should be able to close in to Obj A.

5. 3 section advances in behind 1 section and as soon as 1 section reaches the closest edge of the Obj A (e.g. a trench) rushes forward to assist in capturing and clearing.

6. Upon securing Obj A, 1 section pushes to the forward edge of OBJ A and begins defending the Obj, 3 section switch fire to suppressing Obj B. Along with Fire support team.

7. 2 Section then advance under the cover of suppression from 2 directions.

8. During this time vehicle teams if in tanks can do a number of things: Assault straight up providing a moving shield with 1 or 2 players from 1 section inside ready to egress and have the rest of the section spawn onto them. They could alternatively move to the flanks and fire upon reinforcements making their way up to to shore up or retake an objective. Aircraft can be useful in spot flare coverage, ground attack or even assist in suppressing the objectives.

The commander doesn't need to fuss about what individual fire teams are doing, his task would be the choose the objective, and controlling each elements actions during the assault as well as co-ordinating fire support.

For defense the configuration would be similar with minor variations:

1. 1 & 2 Sect with a higher composition of medics and support spread out along the front
2. 3 section remains slightly rear ready to shore up defences that are collapsing or to retake an objective.
3. Veh squad without vehicles now become anti air anti armor.
4. Fire support remains much the same.

Their strategy would be to find which direction the main assaulting force is heading, concentrate fire upon it and possible flank and cut off with its reserve section.

Personally I love the mechanics of BF1s Operations, its gives the tools for truly great team play yet time and again I am disheartened by seeing two arty trucks sniping at the rear with 20+ snipers in the assault barely 5m at spawn.

In defence I see the same no. of snipers hiding from tanks when if each of them fired a single K bullet a Heavy tank would go down in seconds.

This may all seem rather complex and unachievable but I can guarantee that there are more people doing or at least practising along the lines of this than there are BF1, BF4 players out there. Some better than others. True, it would be impossible to be MVP in some of these roles and it might be harder for the likes of Nickel to dominate, but the overall level of competence in single combat will still be a factor and it would allow less skilled or differently players to be incorporated. Although it looks like a set piece match variations with feints or non Obj raids (e.g. for assault to fake and draw in reserve on A just to assault B or in defence flank and rout the rear with reserve) that can turn the tide of a match.

Well...that's my 2c anyway.

I've tried to keep it as short as possible, hope it still makes sense.

Regards, Marty

Posts: 3,292

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

Location: Arizona, USA

Reputation modifier: 15

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 9:50am

The following is an excerpt of a post I authored in, what is now, a dead thread. Not every sentence is applicable to the topic, but I think the idea as a whole is synonymous with the original material.

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Balancing the game around public play is truly the only route DICE can travel with Battlefield 1. It isn't always a guarantee that communication occurs in every given round or that communication doesn't occur; it is an unreliable variable to include in a balancing scenario. It is hard to balance around teamwork because it isn't guaranteed in every round; it could be present or absent. Coordination experiences the same dilemma. This is the frustrating aspect of combined arms: teamwork, communication, and coordination aren't a certified mechanic because they are bound by player choice.

In a perfect world all players would be interacting with one another. In this example, every player is mic'd up and they all know precisely what their role is; what they must prioritize and what they should ignore. Squads of five would consist of 1 of every class and either an extra Medic or Assault depending on the situation. A squad of players would be limited to communicating solely with their squadmates while the squad leader would have the accessibility to talk with his squad in conjunction with the remaining squad leaders. Squad leaders would essentially act as mediators to relay information to the entire team.

That is how I envision the game would play out if every inconsistent variable of human input remained constant. As you can see, public matches cannot and will not ever behave in this manner. The factor of free will is much too magnanimous in public play due to the cold hard fact that Battlefield is an arcade shooter by design and not representative of a war simulator in any meaningful manner.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$tho PvF 2017 Champion Posts: 7,304 Date of registration : Apr 3rd 2012 Platform: PC Battlelog: Reputation modifier: 19 Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 9:55am Quoted from "JSLICE20" It isn't always a guarantee that communication occurs in every given round or that communication doesn't occur; it is an unreliable variable to include in a balancing scenario. It is hard to balance around teamwork because it isn't guaranteed in every round; it could be present or absent. Coordination experiences the same dilemma. Yet in the past you've been against mechanics that would reduce the impact of terrible teammates. @Darktan13 Care to recount some stories from Team Sym's 32v32 days? Data Browser Passive Spotting is the future! "Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours. Are you a scrub? Quoted from "blahdy" If it flies, it diesÂ. Posts: 3,292 Date of registration : Apr 26th 2013 Platform: PS4 Location: Arizona, USA Reputation modifier: 15 Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 10:06am Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA" Yet in the past Rather than just make a broad generalization could you cite the material that you are responding to? As in find a quote or quotes pertaining to your argument? That way I can defend or explain my stance on why you may have misunderstood or misinterpreted my thoughts. To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question. Nope. 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PvF 2017 Champion

Posts: 7,304

Date of registration
: Apr 3rd 2012

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 19

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 10:20am

Quoted from "NoctyrneSAGA"

Yet in the past

Rather than just make a broad generalization could you cite the material that you are responding to? As in find a quote or quotes pertaining to your argument? That way I can defend or explain my stance on why you may have misunderstood or misinterpreted my thoughts.

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Automatic regeneration enables self-sufficiency/ reliance.

Self-reliance dictates you need not anyone else to provide for you; operating on your own.

Operating on your own constitutes as lone-wolfing.

Lone-wolfing implies no collaboration with another, therefore no teamwork.

In conclusion:

Auto-regen = abolishing teamwork

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

-OR-

Be the dude pressing the button to get aforementioned "shit" done.

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Fine then, instead of regeneration implement Hardline's new system where you can take ammo for yourself from a Support player.

-OR-

Plant 3 strategically placed ammo reserves and disperse them for Conquest

-OR-

Be the dude pressing the button to get the aforementioned "shit" done.

Quoted from "JSLICE20"

Evolve, grow another arm, and press the damn button yourself.

No buttons are required with an auto-regen system.

That last one was truly a gem.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

"Skill" may indeed be the most magical of words. Chant it well enough and any desire can be yours.

Are you a scrub?

Quoted from "blahdy"

If it flies, it diesÂ.

Salt Miner

Posts: 3,695

Date of registration
: Mar 19th 2014

Platform: Xbox One

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 16

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 10:33am

Now this is the sort of thing I'd love to watch; I'm absolutely in favour.

Oh wow, another topic derailed in the first few posts, didn't see that coming.
Who Enjoys, Wins

Posts: 127

Date of registration
: Aug 24th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: QLD, Australia/ NC, USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 11:04am

Well, instead of simply railing against the players unfamiliar or chooses not to use teamwork, I have the beginnings of a plan to implement a change.
Most importantly by your replies I see that I am not alone in my wishes.

Uses the ink blot theory. We can't change everyone everywhere instantly but a spot at a time with hope each spot will spread. It may take a bit of massaging but here's the general gist of progress. I witness the very beginnings of it the other day playing with a random squad and provided fire support with a simple Lewis.

1. Squad up with a friend, keep squad unlocked. Win, loss or draw (manner of speech) play by assessing then providing the team what it's lacking tactically. As randoms squad up they can hear us working together and slowly the numbers will grow. Better yet, form up squads that play together on Symthic or Reddit and play that way. People don't like instructions nowadays but they do see effect. The problem is all they see are individual competent vehicle players trouncing a server.
When playing with a silent random communicate to them as you would a dog. Dogs don't talk back but you still speak to them nevertheless right?

Can't get a title

Posts: 1,531

Date of registration
: Dec 23rd 2013

Platform: Xbox One

Location: The Land of Multitudinous Kangaroos

Reputation modifier: 13

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 11:27am

64 man competitive Operations sounds like a complete mess.

A few Scouts with Spotting Flares + a whole load of Supports with mortars = spam spam suppression spam spam smoke spam
something something Model 8 bestgun

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:

Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Quoted from "Veritable"

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

Quoted from "Pastafarianism"

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.

Posts: 127

Date of registration
: Aug 24th 2016

Platform: PS4

Location: QLD, Australia/ NC, USA

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 3

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 11:36am

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

64 man competitive Operations sounds like a complete mess.

A few Scouts with Spotting Flares + a whole load of Supports with mortars = spam spam suppression spam spam smoke spam

Lol..one of the reasons so many died in WWI. It would be interesting to see strategies evolving however. Would be nice if smoke grenades obscured spot flares.

Rezmer

Posts: 4,259

Date of registration
: Apr 6th 2012

Platform: PC

Location: From the heart of Europe.

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 17

Wednesday, January 18th 2017, 11:40am

Quoted from "Zer0Cod3x"

64 man competitive Operations sounds like a complete mess.

A few Scouts with Spotting Flares + a whole load of Supports with mortars = spam spam suppression spam spam smoke spam

You could fix that with a proper resupply system.
[Aristocrat's Shoes]

Quoted from "Darktan13"

TLDR -
Teamwork is where players function by themselves, but their effectiveness is multiplied when they work together. Not a checklist of "did we bring a healer so we can start playing?"

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