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Posts: 3,193

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31

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 9:19pm

I don't follow. Which is incorrect? My statement or Veritable's data?

Players with inherently inferior accuracy will need to rely on extended ammo capacity as a crutch to compensate for poor aim. I would know as I am currently one of those players and relying on said crutch has not helped me improve; and why should it, that's illogical. The only form for improvement is to invoke challenge and break the comfort zone or state of complacency (really something I should apply to life on general).

I'm in the process of changing that mentality by forcing myself to utilize skill based tools that limit my engagements through range and capacity. This fundamentally instills how to use a weapon where its most optimal performance resides.

I used to appreciate the weapon balance of BF3/4 in that many weapons could be effective well past their intended range because it was much easier than to use proper positioning and movement around the map. BF1's mechanics have proved that I was just a bad player and was just playing against worse competition if and when I was successful. Getting constantly destroyed in BF1 was a shock to me and helped me to realize that in order to be successful at this game I needed to change my mentality and tactics from previous titles; I actually had to start learning ideal positioning and movement to develop as a player.

The more forgiving options are ideal for extremely casual play, but will not match to a good player with a 'skill cannon.' The good player will always win, probably anyway. They experience human error, too. That's me speaking from a former area of complacency anyway. You're free to do what you please.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Jan 31st 2017, 9:28pm)


Posts: 3,252

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32

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 10:20pm

I see magazine size is being overvalued again. Rate of fire is far more important. If you miss one round with an Automatico, it doesn't really matter that much. If you miss one round with an MP18, it's going to hurt you a bit more. Miss two with the Automatico, you're probably still okay. Miss two with the MP18 and you're likely to lose the fight.

Misses are far more punishing on slow RoF guns (of equal bullets-to-kill, naturally). Rate of fire is what determines fights, magazine size only matters if you run empty.
Who has fun, wins.

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33

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 10:32pm

If you miss one round with an MP18, it's going to hurt you a bit more. Miss two with the Automatico, you're probably still okay. Miss two with the MP18 and you're likely to lose the fight.

Hmmm, this seems to be the case with the Villar Perosa and MG 08/15...who woulda thunk?
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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34

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 10:37pm

Hmmm, this seems to be the case with the Villar Perosa and MG 08/15...who woulda thunk?


That's exactly true. And on that tangent, I just happened to notice yesterday that my accuracy is far higher with the V-P than the MG08.
Who has fun, wins.

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35

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 11:46pm

Hmmm, this seems to be the case with the Villar Perosa and MG 08/15...who woulda thunk?


That's exactly true. And on that tangent, I just happened to notice yesterday that my accuracy is far higher with the V-P than the MG08.
Cuz MG08 awful unless you're hacking.

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36

Tuesday, January 31st 2017, 11:55pm

I see magazine size is being overvalued again. Rate of fire is far more important. If you miss one round with an Automatico, it doesn't really matter that much. If you miss one round with an MP18, it's going to hurt you a bit more. Miss two with the Automatico, you're probably still okay. Miss two with the MP18 and you're likely to lose the fight.

Misses are far more punishing on slow RoF guns (of equal bullets-to-kill, naturally). Rate of fire is what determines fights, magazine size only matters if you run empty.
Yes but this thread is about medic rifles, of course full-auto SMGs are different. With full auto guns you are always consistently firing at the same rate and you are not aiming every shot individually. And of course magazine size only matters if you run empty. But there are medic rifles that are literally incapable of killing 2 people with 1 magazine without headshots. If you play the objective in a reasonably competitve round of conquest that matters immensly.

If you care about ranking medic rifles for effectiveness in bf1 and you only consider magazine size with an incredibly arbitrary 1/6 of total weight in a category combined with reload speed you are not getting very valuable information. You need a more gameplay specific scenario with a target rich environment and enemies that are moving and hiding in cover and therefore take into account misses and performance against multiple targets.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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37

Wednesday, February 1st 2017, 12:27am

If you care about ranking medic rifles for effectiveness in bf1 and you only consider magazine size with an incredibly arbitrary 1/6 of total weight in a category combined with reload speed you are not getting very valuable information.

40m ADS Not Moving, 200 damage target, Auto-8 .35 Marksman vs. M1916 Marksman

Per Bullet Damage: 38 vs. 37.3

5RB Hitrates: 100% + 92.7% + 77.14% + 65.79% + 57.12% vs. 100% + 93.86% + 78.09% + 66.55% + 57.89%

Expected 5RB Damage: 149.245 vs. 147.85347

Expected Fired Rounds Needed To Achieve Damage Target: 7 vs. 7

Time to Shoot Needed Rounds: 1.166666667s vs. 1.866666667s

Time to Recover From Firing: 0.2333333333s vs. 0.2333333333s

Time to Reload The Fired Rounds: 1x 5rnds stripper clip + 2x single bullets = 6.167s vs. 1x Short Reload = 2.37s

V-Recoil Suffered From Firing: 5.95deg vs. 7deg

Velocity: 660m/s vs. 800m/s

-----

Here are all the numbers. Now feel free to apply your own "incredibly arbitrary" scores to them. In fact, as noted in the OP, the Worksheet is right here: BF1 Medic Race To.... - Google Sheets Within, I have Hitrater 5RB hit percentages, Firing Times, Recovery Times and Reload Times, for 36x test cases (Hipfire from 2.5m to 15m, ADS - Moving from 5m to 60m, ADS - Not Moving from 10m to 100m). Feel free to draw your own conclusions from the data... in fact, I'd prefer that you do, and make up your own minds.

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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38

Thursday, February 2nd 2017, 12:19am

Some updates to the original posts. I added 12 more instances to look at, so now Hipfires go out to 15m... ADS - Moving has more in-between ranges... and ADS - Not Moving ranges between 5m to 100m. Average engagement distance is ~29.58m, which is about right from my observations. Post content and attached charts are all updated.

Current rankings:

  1. Auto-8 .35 Marksman
  2. M1916 Optical
  3. M1916 Marksman
  4. M1916 Factory
  5. Auto-8 .35 Factory
  6. Mondragon Optical
  7. Cei-Rigotti Optical
  8. Luger 1906
  9. M1907 Factory
  10. Auto-8 .25 Extended
  11. M1907 Trench
  12. M1907 Sweeper
  13. Cei-Rigotti Factory
  14. Cei-Rigotti Trench
  15. Mondragon Storm
  16. Mondragon Sniper (bipod never deployed)


Again, this is derived from: 1/2 shooting + recovering, 1/2 ease-of-use | 1/3 Hipfiring, 2/3 ADS | 1/2 Moving, 1/2 Not Moving. The above ranking matches my in-game experience. Your mileage may vary, though, because you might put more stock into certain aspects and less so on others. In the immediate follow-up posts to the OP, I already provided additional compilations of test cases that might cater to some specific playstyles. However, if you STILL think the results do not jive with you, then feel free to download the data in the Google Sheets, and draw your own conclusions.

-----

Here is my take on the Auto-8 .35 Marksman vs. M1916 Optical for the top spot, which my in-game experience agrees with:

Shooting Score: 142.5992063 vs. 86.65123058

Recovery Score: 112.7060613 vs. 111.9686904

Reload Score: 40.50907 vs. 91.02600845

V-Recoil Score: 71.8940601 vs. 59.94264475

Velocity Score: 82.5 vs. 100

Combined Score: 450.2083977 vs. 449.5885742

-----

You can say that I think the Auto-8 .35 Marksman is 18.9% better at killing, but the M1916 Optical is 18.69% easier to use. I value the former, while you might prefer the latter. I won't fault you... we'll just agree to disagree 8)

-----

If the Feb patch has any changes affecting these weapons, I will re-run the relevant parts and update if anything changes. Then, expect the next addition to be adding the DLC Medic rifles as they are released.

This post by "Skanic" (Thursday, February 2nd 2017, 12:24am) has been deleted by the author himself (Monday, February 6th 2017, 8:34pm)

  • "Veritable" started this thread

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40

Thursday, February 16th 2017, 8:59pm

Original posts (#1 to #6) updated with the recent Winter Patch data. The biggest change is of course the Luger 1906, which is now an Optical variant in all stats. Thus, it is now the best performer in terms of ADS damage output, overall. Additionally, although the Auto-8 .35 Marksman does slightly out-damage it at ~35m and below, as sid_tai noted in the Patch Notes thread:

14th February 2017 Battlefield 1 Patch Notes - Symthic style

...it is advantageous to run 1.25x and 2x for your ADS zoom level. Unfortunately, such settings are not available to the Marksman. So, the Luger's Iron Sights have additional benefit that is not reflected here.

It is not all great news for the Luger, though... as it is still a "DMR"-sized rifle, with the associated "bad" Hipfire spread values, but now it lost the Factory Spread Decrease. Thus, its Hipfire scores are now almost the worst-in-class. It is now just very slightly "better" than the Mondragon Optical / Sniper, due to slightly better RoF and V-Recoil but worst Reload (no surprise there).

Iron Sights do have the fastest ADS transition time, though, so my suggestion to those picking up the Luger 1906, is to try to always ADS before shooting. If you find the Hipfire -> ADS transition to be disorientating in CQB, then try 1.25x zoom along with ADS FoV Scaling = On in the Settings.
Veritable has attached the following file: