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TheMightyVoice

The Pantless Messiah Returns

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21

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:23am

Then perhaps the fact that such design elements are so flimsy means they are flawed in the first place?


No, it means good ideas often get tossed out because reality makes them not work.
I think you mean ideas that were thought to good originally are later determined to be not very good ideas. This means that it wasn't a good idea to begin with, simply that it was an idea.
Besides, more click taxes and button press taxes are among the last things BF1 needs, anyways. Plus, I'd posit that panic grenades aren't the main cause of grenade grief in BF1, it's the well thought out, planned, and executed grenade throws that achieve potentially frustrating results. Far less likely is it that grenades thrown in a last moment pre-death fit, with a split second of panicked preparation comprised of hurriedly slopping your mouse about trying to figure out where you want to throw it before the animation finishes will achieve anything resembling a successful result.

Also, who the fuck decided friendly and enemy gas all had to look the same?
Eat your heart out, Badger.

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<elementofprgress> yummm baby jesus
<elementofprgress> but i'd prefer jesus with ketchup

<cloon> women are allowed to play hockey?
<daddygreeenjeans> body checks are a fundamental part of women's suffrage

<Riesig> "... I'M GAY..."

steamboat28: the doctors at the ER found my nipples, too!
steamboat28: it just..y'know...took them a razor and two orderlies.

<Legion> And damn, now I really want some [redacted] penetrator measurements

<Rezal> peipin, why did you tell them you brought your phone?
<Pepin_the_Short> Because there’s like a one in five chance of getting searched on the way out
<Pepin_the_Short> And trying to sneak the fucker out is way worse than letting them look at Cloon’s dick pics.

17:52:08 <Rezal> Unfortunately, this video is not available in your country because it could contain music, for which we could not agree on conditions of use with GEMA.
17:52:15 <ToTheSun> lolgema
17:52:15 <TheMightyVoice> lolgema

<Legion> But I literally am Hitler right now
Somehow my bullets are magnetically attracted to popular Youtubers, but theirs rarely seem to hit me.

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22

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:25am

I don't think it's off topic at all, namely it is discussing "is modifying user imput via making grenades slotted as opposed to quick action a useful means of improving grenade spam".


I suppose that's true. Seeing as it's not particularly viable though, I wonder what else could/should be done. Grenades aren't too bad as they are right now, mostly.


Well the first step is actually defining the problem and then identifying what is causing it.

Just saying "grenade spam" doesn't actually tell you anything. I like my definition of spam - namely can a small subset of a team sit on an ammo pool and throw out AOE such that it completely shuts down the other teams ability to move through a critical location of the game board.

To me this is 100% a map design issue, not an AOE gadget issue. BF keeps flirting with these highly linear and highly bottlenecked map designs (there have been a few in every game since 1942) and everyone seems to find them fun because you have a very high concentration of action in a thoroughly unimaginative and thus predictable fashion.

But then people complain about "spam" because 30+ people can concentrate explosive gadgets along a few defacto corridors. But you're not only facing explosive spam, you're also facing bullet spam because you've got a huge number of guns pointing down a narrow spot, but for some reason no one complains about that.

For me, if you're in a situation where spam actually works, even with a generous resupply rate on granades it's a sign you might have loaded into what is objectively a "bad" map. IMO bottlenecking simply doesn't work in a game that rewards you with micro-resupply.

NoctyrneSAGA

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23

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:36am

To me this is 100% a map design issue, not an AOE gadget issue. BF keeps flirting with these highly linear and highly bottlenecked map designs (there have been a few in every game since 1942) and everyone seems to find them fun because you have a very high concentration of action in a thoroughly unimaginative and thus predictable fashion.

But then people complain about "spam" because 30+ people can concentrate explosive gadgets along a few defacto corridors. But you're not only facing explosive spam, you're also facing bullet spam because you've got a huge number of guns pointing down a narrow spot, but for some reason no one complains about that.


That is because people want FPSs to "go back to their roots." And I mean the real roots as point-and-click adventures.

The way these aiming purists describe things makes it seem like they want shooting galleries just like the experience the linear maps provide.

What is funny about your second paragraph is that "only explosives can be spammed, not bullets."
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Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


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elementofprgress

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24

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:44am


grenade spam != FPS roots, controllers game design etc etc etc

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:53am

To me this is 100% a map design issue, not an AOE gadget issue. BF keeps flirting with these highly linear and highly bottlenecked map designs (there have been a few in every game since 1942) and everyone seems to find them fun because you have a very high concentration of action in a thoroughly unimaginative and thus predictable fashion.

But then people complain about "spam" because 30+ people can concentrate explosive gadgets along a few defacto corridors. But you're not only facing explosive spam, you're also facing bullet spam because you've got a huge number of guns pointing down a narrow spot, but for some reason no one complains about that.


That is because people want FPSs to "go back to their roots." And I mean the real roots as point-and-click adventures.

The way these aiming purists describe things makes it seem like they want shooting galleries just like the experience the linear maps provide.

What is funny about your second paragraph is that "only explosives can be spammed, not bullets."


I think these aiming purists just need something to bitch about because otherwise their channels devolve into repeatedly watching slightly above average people play a game you could just be playing yourself. In a certain way its a manufactured problem to sell views, and for whatever reason this attitude gains currency in the general population.

The way I see it, if I'm going down to massive grenade spamming in a halway I would have just gone down to multiple podded mgs in the same instance anyway so it's a totally moot issue. The real issue is that you should not be advancing on enemies without cover or the ability to supress their shooting (either via the mechanic or wounding them into having to cover).

If you can't move in cover or supress, or flank around failing those things, it's simply just a bad map.

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26

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 5:30am

What are everyone's thoughts on the standard explosive grenades? Meaning Frag, Impact, and Mini. I have about 10 kills combined with them, so I can't really comment here.

Light AT seems pretty decent, though I really just use them as extra firepower in Assault; I'm not sure how appealing they would be to, say, Medic. Are they good enough to consider using in Medic as a little bit of AT ability? Or are they really just a waste of a slot there?

Incendiary is fantastic. I'm impressed how well designed and balanced they are for how complex balancing them must be.

Gas is the real contentious issue, mainly because of just how much gas tends to be on the field at once. Dropping the count to one (like every grenade but the low-damage Mini and non-lethal Smoke) should improve things dramatically, though a reduction in time-to-live may be worth considering.

Smoke is rather effective, but could be better and more appealing. It doesn't quite last long enough, and it doesn't properly reward or through that explain proper smoke use to players. Points aren't just to encourage use and make people feel good (although that's helpful), they also exist to explain to players how to (and how not to) use various tools in the game. They give feedback, and encouragement for using things properly. But not Smoke.

While the idea of Smokes giving points (maybe for enemies being in it) has been thrown around quite a bit, I saw a brilliant suggestion for points for Smoke grenades a couple days ago: Points for removing Spots. That's exactly what Smoke is for, in a gameplay/technical sense, it removes and blocks spotting. The Smoke user should get "Spot Removed +50" (or whatever amount) for every friendly spot removed by their grenades.
Who has fun, wins.

TheMightyVoice

The Pantless Messiah Returns

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27

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 5:57am

The problem I see with rewarding grenades is that it would be difficult to set up a system in which users are rewarded for using them properly, but doesn't encourage people to throw smokes at the feet of team members willy nilly, obstructing the view of key vantage points for the dank XP.
I am, however, always for better in-game explanation of how things work and the benefits of weapons and utilities.
Eat your heart out, Badger.

Spoiler Spoiler


<elementofprgress> yummm baby jesus
<elementofprgress> but i'd prefer jesus with ketchup

<cloon> women are allowed to play hockey?
<daddygreeenjeans> body checks are a fundamental part of women's suffrage

<Riesig> "... I'M GAY..."

steamboat28: the doctors at the ER found my nipples, too!
steamboat28: it just..y'know...took them a razor and two orderlies.

<Legion> And damn, now I really want some [redacted] penetrator measurements

<Rezal> peipin, why did you tell them you brought your phone?
<Pepin_the_Short> Because there’s like a one in five chance of getting searched on the way out
<Pepin_the_Short> And trying to sneak the fucker out is way worse than letting them look at Cloon’s dick pics.

17:52:08 <Rezal> Unfortunately, this video is not available in your country because it could contain music, for which we could not agree on conditions of use with GEMA.
17:52:15 <ToTheSun> lolgema
17:52:15 <TheMightyVoice> lolgema

<Legion> But I literally am Hitler right now
Somehow my bullets are magnetically attracted to popular Youtubers, but theirs rarely seem to hit me.

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28

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 5:59am

The light AT grenade is absolutely worth it to round out an AT kit or to give you some sort of AT support ability. It's a solid 20 pt hit on a tank which is pretty potent when helping out a squad with a tank and so it makes plenty of sense even as a medic for squad play

Otherwise I'm very fond of the impact gren simply because it is the fastest grenade to kill so it's a real life saver in tight fights from cover. If your throw is good there is just no evading it.

I don't see the angle in rewarding points for smoking. The benefits are the ability to push forward and score points you wouldn't be able to without said smoke grenade. It's not like repairing/gunning where you need lots of passive assist points just to validate the role relative to how you could be scoring doing something else.

The biggest issue I have with smoke is that you need the persistent ability to deploy it for it to be effective over a single life because their AOE and TTL just aren't very good. And that really makes it rewarding/effective mostly for the support class when it's beneficial to all classes and arguably most beneficial to medic and assault.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Jan 12th 2017, 6:04am)


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29

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 9:25am

Honestly, grenades don't bother me as much in BF1 even though I was completely unaware the Frags were just Impacts with a longer fuse. Might explain why I've gotten many kills with them just playing CQL! I'd be fine with giving them true 3s fuses, or increasing their detonation timer after landing on the ground

The Impact nade in this game annoys me like no other though, I was a RGO user in BF4 and now I can't stand using Impacts here or getting killed by them. The latter is just really fucking frustrating too, especially since I've been killed in CQC by people who couldn't land any shots and me not being able to kill them quickly enough. The damage on those really need to be toned down and/or increase the time it takes to throw them by a significant amount like the AT Grenade gadget, so people can't panic throw them and they're used tactically for wounding or finishing off low HP enemies hiding in cover, not killing enemies that are actively shooting you. If a Frag grenade nerf does go through, the Impacts **have** to be addressed

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30

Thursday, January 12th 2017, 11:20am

Gas is fine, indirect buff to the likes of Shotguns and the Automatico.

Incendiaries should be extinguished by smoke, but I might be biased.
Hackintosh user, european player, suppressor lover.
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