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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 12:20am

Adding an extra click is only going to make it clunkier without actually stopping spam.


Not true at all. It's a psychology and reflex thing. Panic grenade throws or just lobbing it a distance "because why not" happens so much exactly because it's so simple, fast, and brainless to do. Same reason panic melee exists. If you had to equip it first, no one would be able to toss/drop one right in the middle of a firefight, either as a final "fuck you" martyrdom tactic, or just before rounding a corner/cover, or so forth, and spamming them from a distance "just because you can" would happen far less as well, again because it's not a simple one-button thing.

Ease-of-use is a very important aspect of game design, and controlling exactly how easy/simple something is to use greatly affects how usable it is in practice to the general playerbase. So yes, making it "clunkier to use" is exactly the idea, precisely because it isn't clunky enough right now, and we're seeing the result of that.


If people want to panic throw or lob a grenade for the hell of it, they will do it anyways.

It does not matter how clunky you make it.

Oh sure, now there is a delay before you can throw the grenade. Accounting for it in panic throws is trivial.

A player wishing to mindlessly toss a grenade isn't going to put any more consideration into the click tax than they already have when considering why they are indiscriminately tossing a grenade for no reason.



If you want to stop spam, you do it by actually limit output. Not by intituting easily circumvented physical activity.


If there was a weapon switch involved I'd just macro it anyway. One button press switches, throws and switches back. You're just making people who want the easy throw do more work for nearly the same result.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 1:14am

That's a PC issue I suppose. It certainly makes properly controlling/influencing player actions harder when they have all these ways to cheat around it.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 2:53am

That's a PC issue I suppose. It certainly makes properly controlling/influencing player actions harder when they have all these ways to cheat around it.


How is that "cheating"? There is nothing dishonest or unfair about them - two conditions required for something to be "cheating".

All PC gaming hardware advertises macros as a core hardware feature. That is to say it is integrated into the landscape and there is nothing dishonest about them.

The only people who don't have access are those who are financially incapable of affording the hardware. I think that pool of people is very near zero. If you have the financial means and the interest to have a PC capable of running current AAA titles, you probably have the $200 extra to have nice peripherals, especially since they are literally game changing in terms of ergonomic quality of life.

So basically, everyone has them, and everyone knows that they are being used. If you're on PC and you're not using just some basic macros you're just effin' lazy or a purist.

Now if you've got a tourney or whatever with specific house rules then fine, coming in with a flashed mouse/keyboard full of macros is definitely cheating, but otherwise it's not. If you think macros are cheating, by definition you also must maintain that variable DPI "on the fly" is also cheating since it basically leverages the same core hardware mechanics. Good luck with that one.

And sure, in games where chaining combos together by mashing specific buttons with a certain timing (say fighting games or APM base mobas and the like), you might construe macros as cheating because the whole game "skill" component revolves around button mashing, but most games aren't that.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 3:03am

How is that "cheating"? There is nothing dishonest or unfair about them - two conditions required for something to be "cheating".


I was mostly poking fun, but it is true that this sort of user-side customization/freedom makes game design harder. It's something I love about consoles, that (with a few minor exceptions), everyone has exactly the same hardware and such. You can call me a purist if you want, that may be somewhat accurate.

What bothers me most is people's ability to get around the intended design of the game, an obvious example being that we can't have proper night maps because so many people would just turn their brightness up.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 3:07am

I was mostly poking fun, but it is true that this sort of user-side customization/freedom makes game design harder. It's something I love about consoles, that (with a few minor exceptions), everyone has exactly the same hardware and such. You can call me a purist if you want, that may be somewhat accurate.

What bothers me most is people's ability to get around the intended design of the game, an obvious example being that we can't have proper night maps because so many people would just turn their brightness up.


Then perhaps the fact that such design elements are so flimsy means they are flawed in the first place?
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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 3:19am

Then perhaps the fact that such design elements are so flimsy means they are flawed in the first place?


No, it means good ideas often get tossed out because reality makes them not work.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 3:37am

I'm pretty sure that by definition an idea isn't good if it can't be translated into practice.

Also not to quibble, but consoles use aim assist and other shenanigans to approximate the truly functional experience you'd find with Keyboard and mouse, how on earth is that more pure?

And there totally are 3rd party controllers with macro button support for consoles. Hell, Razr straight up advertises theirs as giving you an "unfair advantage"...

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 3:45am

I'm pretty sure that by definition an idea isn't good if it can't be translated into practice.

Also not to quibble, but consoles use aim assist and other shenanigans to approximate the truly functional experience you'd find with Keyboard and mouse, how on earth is that more pure?

And there totally are 3rd party controllers with macro button support for consoles. Hell, Razr straight up advertises theirs as giving you an "unfair advantage"...


And I'd rather neither of those were a thing, but it is what it is, and I suppose we shouldn't derail this too much more.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:07am

I'm pretty sure that by definition an idea isn't good if it can't be translated into practice.

Also not to quibble, but consoles use aim assist and other shenanigans to approximate the truly functional experience you'd find with Keyboard and mouse, how on earth is that more pure?

And there totally are 3rd party controllers with macro button support for consoles. Hell, Razr straight up advertises theirs as giving you an "unfair advantage"...


And I'd rather neither of those were a thing, but it is what it is, and I suppose we shouldn't derail this too much more.


I don't think it's off topic at all, namely it is discussing "is modifying user imput via making grenades slotted as opposed to quick action a useful means of improving grenade spam".

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 4:14am

I don't think it's off topic at all, namely it is discussing "is modifying user imput via making grenades slotted as opposed to quick action a useful means of improving grenade spam".


I suppose that's true. Seeing as it's not particularly viable though, I wonder what else could/should be done. Grenades aren't too bad as they are right now, mostly.