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  • "Gecko99" started this thread

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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 9:19pm

The Subject of Grenade Spam

With the upcoming February patch places like BF1's Reddit and Youtubers like Westie, Levelcap and Jackfrags have been petitioning for changes to stop grenade spam and to my surprise there was only a thread for gas so I'm starting one.

In my opinion neither gas or explosives are too plentiful but I only really play Conquest and when I played Operations on Monte Grappa I started to see what people meant, but I only found it to be atmospheric and actually died very little to the grenades themselves.
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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 9:26pm

"casual, casual, casual, casual..."

that's all i hear youtubers say nowadays, and while they are right to a minimalist extent about nade spam, i don't think they realized yet that bf1's balance is more akin to that of an RTS game than that of fps games like rainbow 6 siege and counteer strike.

but back on toic, i think a big problem in nade spam in bf1 is grenade throw speed, you can throw grenades WAY faster in bf1 than other battlefield games, this makes it, at least in appareance, seem that throwing grenades is less risky of a move tan in other games, so people throw grenadess whenever they want rather than thinking about(only exception i guess are incendiary and tank nades)
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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 9:29pm

One Gas instead of two. Make Smoke give points for enemies inside it to encourage its use instead.

Also, require equipping grenades with the grenade button before using them with the fire button.

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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 10:30pm

One Gas instead of two.

The World Champion would love to see the reason behind that one.
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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 10:31pm

This also brings up an issue I've been harping on for a while:

Balancing between different game modes is challenging and potentially impossible, so you need to chose one game mode as the "base game" to really be consistent. This happened with the mortar - pre nerf I never really observed it being dominant of in any way overpowered on conquest. All of the complaints were on operations gameplay where you need to smash yourself against only 1-2 objectives in an entirely linear fashion. I would wager that the mortar is now kinda "bad" relative to other gadgets. On a team play/point assist basis the wrench blows it out of the water and I'd wager the limpy gets you more points in an average round if you're sticking to fighting in close on flags.

Grenade spam is the same thing, on conq there is just so much space to maneuver that you're never going to be running a grenade gauntlet, even on Argonne. The grenade spam on Argonne is nothing like on Metro/Lockers in BF4 even after they toned down grenade effective rate of fire. The only semi problematic grenade is gas and that could easily be fixed by dropping the count to 1. Again that's assuming it's ever really a problem. I've never personally observed it to be so on conq and the problems I have with gas aren't spammability.

And another point - why are gaming Youtubers so damn toxic? It's not just battlefield, every game I follow has a clutch of "high-profile" Youtubers that really do more harm than good. In Space Engineers some of them have been caught downright stealing people's creations, making cosmetic changes and claiming them as their own or "inspired by" so and so. And then lets not even get into the 20-30 minute videos that could be shortened to 60 seconds of footage and a list with some numbers if you cut out all the artificial suspense, etc.

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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 11:02pm

I do not really see a problem. Yeah I've seen a lot of people complain about grenades, but what we had in BF4 was stupid. This game was basically grenade less. If anything I would like to see slight adjustments to the different grenade types. Maybe reduce the splash of the frag grenade, the amount of gas grenades, and give the minis more damage.

I think people misunderstand that the game is about more than "gun skill". The correct use of gadgets and tactics is just as equally important.

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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 11:07pm

Also, require equipping grenades with the grenade button before using them with the fire button.


Adding an extra click is only going to make it clunkier without actually stopping spam.

Balancing between different game modes is challenging and potentially impossible, so you need to chose one game mode as the "base game" to really be consistent. This happened with the mortar - pre nerf I never really observed it being dominant of in any way overpowered on conquest. All of the complaints were on operations gameplay where you need to smash yourself against only 1-2 objectives in an entirely linear fashion. I would wager that the mortar is now kinda "bad" relative to other gadgets. On a team play/point assist basis the wrench blows it out of the water and I'd wager the limpy gets you more points in an average round if you're sticking to fighting in close on flags.


IIRC, DICE said in BF4 that maps were designed for Conquest and then they slice out relevant sections for other game modes.

And the problem of spam isn't exactly going to vanish in Conquest. Remember, there are only a few relevant fighting spots on each map and that is around or inside objectives.

This applies to Operations, Conquet, Rush, etc.

Pressuring these objectives with AoEs is going to happen in each game mode. The difference is that Operations and Rush have higher player densities in respect to Conquest.

The capture zones for Operations are also quite large. However, that appears to be nullified by the fact that there are around 2-3x as many players as usual.
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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 11:22pm

Also, require equipping grenades with the grenade button before using them with the fire button.


Adding an extra click is only going to make it clunkier without actually stopping spam.

Balancing between different game modes is challenging and potentially impossible, so you need to chose one game mode as the "base game" to really be consistent. This happened with the mortar - pre nerf I never really observed it being dominant of in any way overpowered on conquest. All of the complaints were on operations gameplay where you need to smash yourself against only 1-2 objectives in an entirely linear fashion. I would wager that the mortar is now kinda "bad" relative to other gadgets. On a team play/point assist basis the wrench blows it out of the water and I'd wager the limpy gets you more points in an average round if you're sticking to fighting in close on flags.


IIRC, DICE said in BF4 that maps were designed for Conquest and then they slice out relevant sections for other game modes.

And the problem of spam isn't exactly going to vanish in Conquest. Remember, there are only a few relevant fighting spots on each map and that is around or inside objectives.

This applies to Operations, Conquet, Rush, etc.

Pressuring these objectives with AoEs is going to happen in each game mode. The difference is that Operations and Rush have higher player densities in respect to Conquest.

The capture zones for Operations are also quite large. However, that appears to be nullified by the fact that there are around 2-3x as many players as usual.
But because of the player densities and the general way flag firefights go you tend to unload your grenades, shoot a bunch and then invariably one side is quickly pushed off the flag. Either entirely because of wipes, or far off the radius with 1-2 surviving squad members that people can rally around.

There just doesn't seem like that much time to spam. I always drop an ammo box when I can and even so I rarely make it past two resupplies before the fighting in entrenched positions is over. A lot of flag captures is killing guys spawning in far from the flag in an attempt to defend it.

To me, grenade spam is being able to sit on a box of ammo and continuously throw grenades to the point where you shut down the other team's ability to maneuver. That simply doesn't happen on basically any flag in BF1 conquest to meaningful degrees since there are so many flanking options despite how tight the fighting is. Even with pathetic supply rates in BF4 this did still happen on metro/lockers because there was about 10 guys on each team throwing nades into the handful of really chokey choke points.

So obviously you are going to replicate this on the bunker maps in BF1 where you are smashing groups of 10-20 players together in a handful of tight hallways (Grappa, Empire, etc). That's a map design and game mode issue, not a grenade mechanic issue. It's going to be spammy even if you only got 1 fixed gren per life because there is a constant stream of new bodies pouring into the choke points.

Grens aren't spammy in the Conq Argonne bunkers since large use of AOE seems to decisively clear out people as it should, and it's not a terrible issues on the bunkers on other conq versions because of the player counts per flag.

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Wednesday, January 11th 2017, 11:30pm

Adding an extra click is only going to make it clunkier without actually stopping spam.


Not true at all. It's a psychology and reflex thing. Panic grenade throws or just lobbing it a distance "because why not" happens so much exactly because it's so simple, fast, and brainless to do. Same reason panic melee exists. If you had to equip it first, no one would be able to toss/drop one right in the middle of a firefight, either as a final "fuck you" martyrdom tactic, or just before rounding a corner/cover, or so forth, and spamming them from a distance "just because you can" would happen far less as well, again because it's not a simple one-button thing.

Ease-of-use is a very important aspect of game design, and controlling exactly how easy/simple something is to use greatly affects how usable it is in practice to the general playerbase. So yes, making it "clunkier to use" is exactly the idea, precisely because it isn't clunky enough right now, and we're seeing the result of that.

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Thursday, January 12th 2017, 12:07am

Adding an extra click is only going to make it clunkier without actually stopping spam.


Not true at all. It's a psychology and reflex thing. Panic grenade throws or just lobbing it a distance "because why not" happens so much exactly because it's so simple, fast, and brainless to do. Same reason panic melee exists. If you had to equip it first, no one would be able to toss/drop one right in the middle of a firefight, either as a final "fuck you" martyrdom tactic, or just before rounding a corner/cover, or so forth, and spamming them from a distance "just because you can" would happen far less as well, again because it's not a simple one-button thing.

Ease-of-use is a very important aspect of game design, and controlling exactly how easy/simple something is to use greatly affects how usable it is in practice to the general playerbase. So yes, making it "clunkier to use" is exactly the idea, precisely because it isn't clunky enough right now, and we're seeing the result of that.


If people want to panic throw or lob a grenade for the hell of it, they will do it anyways.

It does not matter how clunky you make it.

Oh sure, now there is a delay before you can throw the grenade. Accounting for it in panic throws is trivial.

A player wishing to mindlessly toss a grenade isn't going to put any more consideration into the click tax than they already have when considering why they are indiscriminately tossing a grenade for no reason.



If you want to stop spam, you do it by actually limit output. Not by intituting easily circumvented physical activity.
Data Browser

Passive Spotting is the future!

With this, I'll rid MGO3 of infestation. Sans bad gameplay MGO3 will be torn asunder. And then it shall be free. People will suffer, of course - a phantom pain.

Reddit and Konami will rewrite the records... And I will be demonized in human memory. But... The thirst for good gameplay that I have planted will infest MGO3. No one can stop it now. The Rebalance Mod will unleash that thirst unto the future.


Are you a scrub?

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