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  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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1

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 7:57pm

Gas Grenades

We are all familiar with this Grenade type: a canister that eminates a thick cloud of visually obstructing and damaging mustard gas with a 5m area of effect and a time to live of 20 seconds followed by an extra 2 seconds concerning the area of effect duration. It inflcts 15 damage per second without equipping the Gas Mask.

GasGrenade_Projectile.dice

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               TimeToLive 20.0

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Upon equipping in the loadout, it supplies the user 2 Grenades that can be replenished in 18 seconds from absorbing an Ammo Pouch or standing in the resupply radius of an Ammo Bag.

GasGrenade.dice

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Ammo::AmmoConfigData
        MagazineCapacity 2
        NumberOfMagazines 1
        AutoReplenishDelay 18.0

Grenade 'spam' has been an issue on maps or game modes that enable high player density in recent Battlefield titles; it is just the nature of the beast. Area of effect weaponry is a popular go-to when retaliating against multiple threats in close proximity, no one can fault players for engaging in this legitimate tactic. This philosophy applies to Gas Grenades as well.

While Gas Grenades do encompass a direct, negative impact on players it is easily neutralized by the Gas Mask which every player (including Cavalry and excluding the Sentry Elites) has in his possession. As the description of its characteristics suggests, it serves as an area of denial tool akin to the Incendiary Grenades and, in certain situations, Flare projectiles.

The purposes of gas is to potentially prevent opposing players from access to specific locations (which is especially valuable in buildings and doorways) and to force opponents to equip the Gas Mask reducing their visibility and removing their ability to aim down sight. Not to mention all Gas Grenades, friendly included, impose Suppression rendering return fire even more ineffective.

I do not have an issue with Gas Grenades as a whole; they serve a purpose and belong in regards to the WWI setting since their impact was rather magnanimous. However, their status of implementation is slightly 'buggy' and can prove to be a nuisance at times.

You'll just have to take my word on these following statements as I do not have video evidence to provide: An example of their buggy behavior is that the area of effect travels through walls and ceilings thereby damaging any player in the 5m vicinity horizontal or vertical. Also the visual effect can be unreliable in that the player cannot see the gas yet is still damaged by it. Sometimes these two circumstances occur hand in hand which can be simply frustrating to say the least, especially if one happens to have 15 or less health resulting in an instant death.

This is up for debate, but the time to live and area of effect duration is rather long, almost too long. I would even suggest that it is excessively long. 22 seconds is a good chunk of time to impose a suppressive, non-ADS radius in a fast-paced First Person Shooter where mere milliseconds can determine who lives and dies. And considering that the player in the gas will likely retreat from the gas rather than remain stationary with his mask on, 22 seconds is overkill and I'd suggest a reduction to, say, 16 seconds as an initial value.

What say you, Symthic? How do you perceive Gas Grenades?
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

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Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Nick 30075

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2

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 8:21pm

Gas grenades are kind of what pushed me away from BF1. I like Rush and GG spam in rush was awful. Defenders trying to hold an objective were stuck in hipfire-only mode for the entirety of a push, it just felt awful to defend. Stay in the smoke and get slaughtered when the attackers come through with shotguns and you can barely see anything because the entire universe is green and the mask covers half of your screen. Leave the smoke and get picked off by OHK snipers because Dice wanted to encourage garbage players to pick up sniper rifles instead of discouraging them.

It's made Rush awful to play on infantry-heavy maps. The grenade spam is worse than V40 Operation Locker used to be and it's even less fun than it was then. Favorite game mode is no longer fun to play -> Nick no longer plays BF1.

.

TIME FOR A NEW EXPERIMENT...
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3

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 8:23pm


TIME FOR A NEW EXPERIMENT...


...LET'S TRY GAS!!!!!!!!! 8o


*Coughs*

Area denial can be useful but it needs to be balanced. Being able to lock down a pathway with damage or status effects is a powerful tool and shouldn't be used (or allowed to be used) lightly...

*Reloads AA-12, leaves*

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  • "JSLICE20" started this thread

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4

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 8:31pm

Area denial can be useful but it needs to be balanced. Being able to lock down a pathway with damage or status effects is a powerful tool

I share the same sentiments. Currently, I do not believe it is balanced in the best possible manner. But but, this could be intentional on DICE's behalf. Legion remarked towards the end of the "BF1 Tank Discussion" topic that new and innovative gameplay elements are often released as overpowered to receive feedback from the player base, so that they can more efficiently balance those elements in the future. It's possible this philosophy is attached to how the Gas Grenades currently operate.

There is the issue that if game elements are buffed up from being underpowered, players tend to ignore them in favour of the tools they are used to. Which is actually quite a nuisance if you try to balance a game as now you don't get any feedback on the changes. That's why new elements are often released as overpowered and then toned down. It's far easier to gain feedback that way.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


VincentNZ

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5

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 9:13pm

Hmm yeah my tactic when playing support was always throwing my two gas grenades and then pushing up and killed whoever was not yet dead. Worked rather well offensively. You can also really defend the ballroom well, since you can throw them in a way where it covers key entry points and you do not have to hipfire.

From all the grenades I tried to get my first SS, the gas grenade was the fastest by far and it is a hell of a pointfest, too. The problem I see is, when you play with mates and all or most are using gas and you have a support, with four grenades already you can create large no entry zones. I do not know how often you encounter this tactic, but we have used it a fair bit. I do not think it is a major issue. Depends on the modes as well, I can see the point in rush and even on conquest some flags are basically always in gas.

Since visibility is always an issue in BF1 as well, gas clouds are sometimes hard to distiguish especially when you are already hurt or under suppression. Maybe one could reduce the number of gas grenades to one, but this would be quite harsh, too.

Another problem are friendly gas clouds, I do not think one should see them at all, it adds to the impression that gas is everywhere.

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6

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 9:40pm

I too agree that the gas duration is too long. Add two grenades per player and relatively fast resupply and we have the marvelous gas fest that is BF1.

Either the grenade count should be decreased to 1 or the duration should get slashed to ~15 seconds. Currently they give an unreasonable amount of damage/influence/utility to the player, it's effective area denial over a very large area for 20-40 seconds (depending on whether the grenades are chained or spread over a large area). Instant full suppression, DOT and forcing players to either relocate or enter hipfire only mode, and you get two that lasts almost forever? Gas really do needs a small tone-down.

[Obvious hyperbole incoming]: Also, it doesn't help that all the blueberries carry gas and no-one knows how to throw them at the enemy instead of their own teammates. The friendly gas issue isn't a balancing problem though, just a problem with clueless players. A loading-screen tooltip and an in-game tooltip for when a player gasses a bunch of friendlies that informs the player that he has just given them full suppression and prevented auto-heals should help this massively.

Things people said

And reading Youtube comments still gives me Turbo Cancer.

It really is quite frustrating when Helen Keller sets up her LMG in the only doorway in/out of an area.

What kind of question is that? Since when is cheese ever a bad idea?

Hardline is a fun and sometimes silly Cops and Robbers sorta thing and I think that's great. Or it would be if it didn't suck.

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7

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 10:15pm

[Highly subjective]

I only use Conquest as an example here.

Gas grenades have an apparent effect on players. However, after only few shots with gas mortar (haven't used nades) I scored lots of "enemy hits" and multiple kills. What's up with people not using the mask? The second you start "gas-on" animation you are immune to the effects. Sure, you can not fire accurately anymore, but personally I haven't had trouble avoiding such gunfights (taking cover, moving outside the cloud, etc).

When you use gas grenades you give up:
  • Lethality of frags/AT/minis. You can't smoke out somebody with gas, and especially in close quarters they have little effect (hipfire is effect in any case). A well placed frag/AT nade is hard to dodge, forcing player to come out from hiding or die to the blast.
  • Direct damage of impact. If you can aim with it, enemy can't actively dodge it. (However impact is tricky if enemies are behind corners and such)
  • Lethal area denial of incendiary. Again, smokes out enemies or burns them alive. Also provides visual cover. Detonation time is short enough to be hard to dodge by target with good placement.
  • Visual cover provided by smoke grenades, and slight "blindness" if you are in the smoke. Can't be prevented. However smoke affects your team equally.

My biggest issue with gas is how it can kill you fast through corners when visual cloud is nowhere to be seen. Does not happen often, but this could be avoided with smaller damage at start that increases on every tick, or maybe even make first tick to do 1 damage like healing pouches give one point for "confirmation"?
Links to users' thread list who have made analytical/statistical/mathematical/cool posts on Symthic:
  • 3VerstsNorth - Analysis of game mechanics in BF4 (tickrates, effects of tickrate, etc)
  • leptis - Analysis of shotguns, recoil, recoil control and air drag.
  • Veritable - Scoring of BF4/BF1 firearms in terms of usability, firing and other mechanics.
  • Miffyli - Random statistical analysis of BF4 battlereports/players and kill-distances. (list is cluttered with other threads).
Sorry if your name wasn't on the list, I honestly can't recall all names : ( . Nudge me if you want to be included

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8

Monday, January 2nd 2017, 10:58pm

Just as I was against the Mortar nerf, I'm against nerfing Gas as well. The more "interesting" / tactical / debuff options, the better. If it lasts for less time than now, it would be fairly useless. I'm not against reducing the capacity to 1, though.

All this said, having a gas mask equipped really needs to block squad spawns. The only time you'll ever have one on is in gas, which should be treated just as much as "in combat" as taking damage from any other grenade or being shot at. Not only would it allow clearing out people better, as they wouldn't be able to magically spawn more of themselves, but it would also prevent spawning on a teammate just to immediately find yourself in gas, which is just as annoying.


Side note: I have more kills with gas grenades than any other grenade (I just learned this), despite only ever using it in one class at a time. Part of the reason it seems too effective is because people are dumb.
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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 11:05pm

My issue with gas is that it unevenly effects classes. If I'm assault, I put on the mask and carry on as normal. If I'm scout, it's rendered me useless and I have to run away to a place where there is no gas...

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Monday, January 2nd 2017, 11:17pm

If you nerf gas, you will have more explosive grenades and still gas in every choke.
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