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Posts: 3,291

Date of registration
: Apr 26th 2013

Platform: PS4

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21

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 2:54am

As long as the Landship consumes a tank slot it cannot be balanced simply as an "amtrac", it must be equally as valid/viable as any of the other tanks at being a tank.

Well, not necessarily. You are absolutely correct in that the A7V Heavy Tank is truly the only "actual" tank that is worth using. The other options and their various iterations are not entirely versatile, so they are limited in the engagements of which they can partake. The Landship could be converted to a heavily armored transportation vehicle a la BF4's AMTRAC by increasing its armor strength/ decreasing damage inflicted and incorporating several soldier slots; 2 sponson gunner positions, 4 standard passenger slots, and 1 rear machine gunner. Then, if necessary, tweak the damage of the cannon projectiles if they are too weak or strong for the new role the vehicle has taken. With this change, we now have armor that specializes in delivering troops behind enemy lines that isn't the Breakthrough/Assault A7V.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 3,487

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22

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 3:10am

Flame A7V best tank.
Who Enjoys, Wins

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: Apr 26th 2013

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Location: Arizona, USA

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23

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 3:18am

I forgot to mention, as part of its specialty the "AMTRAC" Landship would be the only armored vehicle with the 'Blueberry spawn' mechanic. Regardless of the necessity to have occupied gunner positions on the Assault and Breakthrough A7Vs, they'll have to get assistance from squad members spawning from the overview screen or players on the field who decide to enter the tank manually.

@BleedingUranium

You want to elaborate on that statement and provide a defense for your claim or just leave it as is really providing nothing constructive to this discussion? Mr. Salt Miner :P
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "JSLICE20" (Dec 27th 2016, 3:27am)


Posts: 1,893

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

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24

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 3:48am

As long as the Landship consumes a tank slot it cannot be balanced simply as an "amtrac", it must be equally as valid/viable as any of the other tanks at being a tank.

Well, not necessarily. You are absolutely correct in that the A7V Heavy Tank is truly the only "actual" tank that is worth using. The other options and their various iterations are not entirely versatile, so they are limited in the engagements of which they can partake. The Landship could be converted to a heavily armored transportation vehicle a la BF4's AMTRAC by increasing its armor strength/ decreasing damage inflicted and incorporating several soldier slots; 2 sponson gunner positions, 4 standard passenger slots, and 1 rear machine gunner. Then, if necessary, tweak the damage of the cannon projectiles if they are too weak or strong for the new role the vehicle has taken. With this change, we now have armor that specializes in delivering troops behind enemy lines that isn't the Breakthrough/Assault A7V.
"Delivering troops" slowly but under armor is not a role that actually works in Battlefield in any meaningful way.

For starters, most maps are designed with a few clustered flags that concentrate the bulk of the infantry. Secondly fast vehicles are way better for covered transportation since they are way better at grabbing enemy gimmes.

Finally, getting a huge pile of infantry together and then slowly moving to a flag simply doesn't happen in pub games. The mobile spawn points are generally used piecemeal/opportunistically.

It's not a class of vehicle that is needed unless it is forced into the game ala Amtrak. In my experience the Amtrak just never lived up to any real potential.

Posts: 1,893

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

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25

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 4:03am

Flame A7V best tank.

It is 100% objectively the worst. It trades medium range anti-infantry firepower and two amazing special abilities, or amazing anti-tank and anti-everything secondaries, for two shitty flamethrowers with terrible fields of fire that only work in ranges that are death to tanks.

That flamethrower firepower only comes into play when the tank is flanked at point blank ranges, that is precisely the situation you should be avoiding at all costs when tanking.

Posts: 3,291

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: Apr 26th 2013

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Location: Arizona, USA

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26

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 4:38am

"Delivering troops" slowly but under armor is not a role that actually works in Battlefield in any meaningful way.

For starters, most maps are designed with a few clustered flags that concentrate the bulk of the infantry. Secondly fast vehicles are way better for covered transportation since they are way better at grabbing enemy gimmes.

Finally, getting a huge pile of infantry together and then slowly moving to a flag simply doesn't happen in pub games. The mobile spawn points are generally used piecemeal/opportunistically.

Ah yes, I forgot you prefer to play Conquest. Of course delivering troops under armor will prove relatively useless on Conquest. My suggestion is more geared for a frontlines gametype like Rush or Operations.

With only 12 players per team, the AMTRAC in BF3 Rush on PS3 was a vital tool for converging on an MCOM and delivering players safely to the objective. And since it acted as a mobile spawn point, it was a priority target for the defending team to neutralize as quickly as possible. I can assure you that in those circumstances it was a frequently used asset since it was often safer than spawning on a squadmate or served as a supplementary spawn source in case your squad got wiped.

Procedural, objective based game modes will always see players spawning as close to the objective as possible to get into the action more rapidly. A specific class of vehicle designed to infiltrate enemy lines and unleash a cabin of soldiers would be ideal for stalemate situations that occur often in push and pull attack and defend style gametypes. The initial push on a Telegraph or Sector is more often than not the deciding factor in capturing or destroying the objective in most situations. After an initial assault is stopped, the defending team is generally more prepared than at the start of a round and that's when stalemates tend to arise. An "AMTRAC" Landship could provide that role where players need to get to a specific location safely and at a decent pace. On the flip side, it could provide the same benefit to defenders who need to get to a certain location en masse. Obviously, it could only be viable if "Blueberry spawning" was limited to this specific vehicle, it had more health or reduced damage against it, and it was locked to the team using it (it could not be hijacked). Limitless spawning would have to be removed from equation on the other versions and the A7V, otherwise the A7V Assault or Breakthrough will surpass the "AMTRAC" Landship's usefulness.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

Source code

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


Posts: 1,893

Date of registration
: Jan 12th 2014

Platform: PC

Battlelog:

Reputation modifier: 13

  • Send private message

27

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 5:15am

"Delivering troops" slowly but under armor is not a role that actually works in Battlefield in any meaningful way.

For starters, most maps are designed with a few clustered flags that concentrate the bulk of the infantry. Secondly fast vehicles are way better for covered transportation since they are way better at grabbing enemy gimmes.

Finally, getting a huge pile of infantry together and then slowly moving to a flag simply doesn't happen in pub games. The mobile spawn points are generally used piecemeal/opportunistically.

Ah yes, I forgot you prefer to play Conquest. Of course delivering troops under armor will prove relatively useless on Conquest. My suggestion is more geared for a frontlines gametype like Rush or Operations.

With only 12 players per team, the AMTRAC in BF3 Rush on PS3 was a vital tool for converging on an MCOM and delivering players safely to the objective. And since it acted as a mobile spawn point, it was a priority target for the defending team to neutralize as quickly as possible. I can assure you that in those circumstances it was a frequently used asset since it was often safer than spawning on a squadmate or served as a supplementary spawn source in case your squad got wiped.

Procedural, objective based game modes will always see players spawning as close to the objective as possible to get into the action more rapidly. A specific class of vehicle designed to infiltrate enemy lines and unleash a cabin of soldiers would be ideal for stalemate situations that occur often in push and pull attack and defend style gametypes. The initial push on a Telegraph or Sector is more often than not the deciding factor in capturing or destroying the objective in most situations. After an initial assault is stopped, the defending team is generally more prepared than at the start of a round and that's when stalemates tend to arise. An "AMTRAC" Landship could provide that role where players need to get to a specific location safely and at a decent pace. On the flip side, it could provide the same benefit to defenders who need to get to a certain location en masse. Obviously, it could only be viable if "Blueberry spawning" was limited to this specific vehicle, it had more health or reduced damage against it, and it was locked to the team using it (it could not be hijacked). Limitless spawning would have to be removed from equation on the other versions and the A7V, otherwise the A7V Assault or Breakthrough will surpass the "AMTRAC" Landship's usefulness.
Well that's a totally separate layer to the problem: balancing for different game modes -the amtrak certainly isn't especially relevant in conquest other than as a shitty tank for maps with no tanks or a last ditch beachhead in the more asymmetric assault maps.

This generic slot thing is really the crux of the problem since you can't just balance it for one game mode or just toss it in on particular maps. It's a part of the core game and thus has to be balanced against other tanks such that it at least has some niche role on more than one map. Likewise the Landship shouldn't be a rush/op only thing unless it was tied specifically to that game mode, which is overall a step back content wise.

The stupidity of the whole vehicle meta is really exemplified by the mortar truck. I mean what the hell were they thinking with that thing?! The landships are so high profile balance failures because they are a pretty high profile subset of vehicles that look pretty damn good on paper.

But the light tank and truck meta issues are actually far greater. You should never use the stock light tank and the mortar truck is pretty much the single WORST thing in the entire game. Even with all its problems the landships are still probably a bit more functional than the lights - the howitzer skill cap is HIGH, and certainly way better than the AA or mortar trucks.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "tankmayvin" (Dec 27th 2016, 5:20am)


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Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 6:09am

I support the idea of something being a big, beefy troop transport that bristles with weapons and supports infantry. But that's not the Landship. From vehicle and seating design, to real world use, to spreading out roles in-game, the proper vehicle for the Amtrack-like role is the A7V.

It's a big, slow box that fits a ton of people, has the highest health, and has weapons that face all directions, but (ideally) doesn't have all that much in pure DPS. The real problem here is it has the same cannons as everything else, when it should have the least firepower per seat, driver included. Every seat should only just be able to do its job alone, because the entire point is for it to be a mobile weapon fortress. Big, tough, lots of guns and in all directions, but slow, and not a lot of pure DPS. A stereotypical "tank", in the broader meaning of the term.

The FT-17 should be the best single-seat DPS-type tank, and especially be the fastest, but at the cost of low health. It's not too bad where it is, with the exception of something that's also related to the A7V: Their spare ammo should be swapped. The FT should be the one with a ton of spare shots, while the A7V should have enough to deal with an FT, and maybe a Mark V, but no more. The FT should be the BF3-4 style tank, but simply with far lower health, making it a glass cannon.

If we take the classic roles, we have DPS (FT), Tank (A7V), and Support. That brings us to the Landship. It's sort of middle of the road, and its strengths and weaknesses are not as straightforward as damage or health. With its unique design it can deliver very high DPS straight ahead, but also to the sides (and each side at the same time), but is also weak to disables, and generally vulnerable to anything 180 degrees behind it. The Landship is actually mostly good where it is, it's the others that need adjustment, but it could still use some changes. The Squad Support variant should have a driver Flamethrower instead of the 20mm (which really is on enough things as-is), which along with its extra MGs and droppable health/ammo, make it the most "in-combat" and aggressive Landship. The Tank Hunter is pretty good as is, but maybe all three variants should have the MG seats, but regardless it's the most ranged/conservative of the variants. The Mortar is a bit of a middle option and I'll get to that in a moment.

The Arty Truck and AA Truck seem decent where they are. If the former needs a buff that's really just down to fine-tuning the cannon; being exceptionally good at disables would be interesting. As for the Mortar (along with the Mortar Landship), what it really needs is more ammo types that will have more impact on the battlefield. So long as Airburst/HE Mortars continue to be awful, they need to focus more on supportive, buff/debuff type actions. HE, Smoke, Gas, Incendiary, and Spotting Flares. All of them.

FT is DPS, A7V is Tank, Landship is general support, Truck is Buffer/Debuffer. Ideally.


At present, the A7V has far too effective driver damage output (shot count especially), but its MGs need to have higher damage (all emplaced/vehicle MGs need this), and it may need to be slightly slower. The FT needs much higher speed and also more ammo, especially for the 37mm. Ideally, an FT and A7V of equal skill level should be evenly matched.
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Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 6:11am

Well that's a totally separate layer to the problem: balancing for different game modes
This generic slot thing is really the crux of the problem since you can't just balance it for one game mode or just toss it in on particular maps.
Likewise the Landship shouldn't be a rush/op only thing unless it was tied specifically to that game mode, which is overall a step back content wise.

Most definitely. Having the ability to chose ANY tank option in Rush is horribly unbalanced if both teams do not have the same vehicle. Not to mention, it gets old having to constantly battle A7Vs. I would suggest DICE look at the maps and balance the tanks by restricting tank types, but allowing all variations. Operations is fine because of the quantity and sheer concentration of infantry that can combat tanks, so vehicle restriction is essentially pointless.

The stupidity of the whole vehicle meta is really exemplified by the mortar truck. I mean what the hell were they thinking with that thing?!

I can only chalk it up to variety. Variety of armament and, therefore, variety of playstyle. It is possible that the Mortar Artilley Truck or Mortar Landship can be effective against a dug-in defense on Rush or Operations. The alternative versions of tanks while inefficient on Conquest can prove worthy on the linear game modes. Also, while not necessarily competitive, using the underused or underperforming variants can be fun for the user when properly handled and yielding kills.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

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the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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30

Tuesday, December 27th 2016, 6:14am

I'd argue some of them loadout are not as useless as you make them to be tho, just a lot more niche and/or specialized than the A7V Assault.

The flamethrower can be very good on Operation when you need that one good push in an "urban" zone since the flames go through even the tiniest hole or window. Yes the risk of losing the tank is high, but if the push succeed, it's a mute issue anyway.

The AA truck can be the ace in the hole you need if you're getting slaughetered by Bombers and Attack Plane when no one can really fly in your team, since it's way harder to destroy or shutdown than the stationnary AA guns.

And to be back on topic, I guess reserving the HE cannons for squad mates while opening both MG backseats to team spawn is a good compromise on the Mortar and Squad Support loadout. The other changes on the Squad Support are really good and it's one step away from being the best possible loadout for infantry killing & support IF worked by a VOIP crew of 3, IMO.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Mahkah" (Dec 27th 2016, 6:21am)