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  • "pTowel" started this thread

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Saturday, December 24th 2016, 9:37pm

'Anyone can spawn' vehicle mechanic

The recent buffing of the raw utility of the landship also came with the inclusion of the 'anyone can spawn' vehicle mechanic added to it, in the spirit of promoting teamwork, according to the patch notes.

While I am not opposed to such a mechanic to add value to a vehicle as a spawn point for friendlies, I don't believe that such a mechanic is helpful in promoting teamwork. This is especially the case when a vehicle with such a mechanic is also a vehicle where communication between the driver and gunners is vital, due to the limited firepower of the driver combined with the limited firing angles of the gunners.

It is true that the 'anyone can spawn' mechanic gives a solo driver a higher chance of having an increased overall effectiveness of his vehicle than if it was not present. But even so, the vehicle is still not much more effective and either way, the driver and gunners each doing their own thing hardly counts as teamwork, unless one is also trying to argue that text chat is a viable way to communicate callouts and instructions in a fast-paced game like Battlefield.

In exchange for this dubious advantage, the mechanic actively disincentives the most effective way to utilise such vehicles, which is to play them with people who are on voice comms and are a reliable element (i.e. those who have a reasonable understanding of what to do, who can execute it with reasonable effectiveness and who will work with the other occupants instead of against them or ignoring them). This is because at any point of time, if someone leaves their seat (I am unsure about the driver, some information would be welcome) to do something such as repairs, they risk having that seat taken by an unreliable element not on voice comms, who is in any case not welcome to do so by the rest of the occupants as they have broken up a premade party. There is nothing anyone can do to force such a person out of the vehicle against their will. The mechanic basically imposes a large, unnecessary risk to basic and essential jobs that the vehicle occupants have to perform when playing the vehicle in the most effective, and dare I say, right way.

This is a huge problem currently for the landship when playing in a group of 3 people all on voice comms and to a lesser extent, the bomber when playing as a duo on voice comms, as it is possible to work around having the main gunner vacate his seat to man the tail gun.

I think the best compromise would be to have a seat lock function, where the driver can tweak to lock to friends or squadmates. There is not even a matter of a 'useless' locked vehicle to contend with anymore, as one can pick whatever vehicle they want for a certain vehicle class spawn - if they wish to play solo, they can pick a more solo-oriented vehicle such as the light tank or attack plane. Or to be more precise, there's much less opportunity cost to adding a seat-locking function to a vehicle like the landship when it is not an obligatory spawn, unlike in BF4 with the transport choppers and AMTRACs. At the very least, I think the 'anyone can spawn' mechanic should go, if not from all vehicles, then at least the landship.

Thoughts?

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "pTowel" (Dec 24th 2016, 9:42pm)


Oscar

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Saturday, December 24th 2016, 10:16pm

I'm in favour of having the choice of locking your vehicle. Something along the lines of setting vehicle spawn to Team/Friends/Squad.
However, at the same time, this restricts the people that just want to use the vehicle as a spawn point (if applicable). I do think that this is a very important function that the A7V/MKv and in some cases Bomber achieve as the only other ground vehicle that allows for a team wide spawn is the Armoured Car, and the AC doesn't boast enough survivabilty to be a reliable spawn point.

If the player decides to lock vehicle spawn, people should still be able to spawn in it, just outside/on a parachute (if applicable). Now, of course this has the "problem" if the spawn restriction extends to whether people can actually get into your vehicle manually or not, but losing team wide spawn points can play a big part if a group of players is making it possible to keep a vehicle running for a while.
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I find majority of the complaints I hear about this game somehow never appear in my games.

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Saturday, December 24th 2016, 10:21pm

I'm in favour of having the choice of locking your vehicle. Something along the lines of setting vehicle spawn to Team/Friends/Squad.
However, at the same time, this restricts the people that just want to use the vehicle as a spawn point (if applicable). I do think that this is a very important function that the A7V/MKv and in some cases Bomber achieve as the only other ground vehicle that allows for a team wide spawn is the Armoured Car, and the AC doesn't boast enough survivabilty to be a reliable spawn point.

If the player decides to lock vehicle spawn, people should still be able to spawn in it, just outside/on a parachute (if applicable). Now, of course this has the "problem" if the spawn restriction extends to whether people can actually get into your vehicle manually or not, but losing team wide spawn points can play a big part if a group of players is making it possible to keep a vehicle running for a while.
This was heavily discussed on here a bit ago but I can't find the thread anymore.

I think vehicles should be lockable by the driver. There are plenty of situations where you want teamspawning about as often as you just want squad spawning and a simple toggle would make everyone happy.

I would very rarely make the A7V squad locked for eg. And many times it would be nice to have the attack plane gunner seat open to teamspawns.

It makes little sense why DICE gets to chose what gets what.

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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 1:02am

I strongly disagree that vehicles should be lockable by the driver.

I had my MBT stolen by blueberries more times than i care to to admit whilst soloing a tank in bf4 and every time i ground my teeth, demanded a lockable vehicle from the dice gods and then realised what would happen.

Either elite players take it and keep it all game or idiot take it and lose it because you cant even get in to help em. Or worse they abandin the vehicle at 50% health and its locked. Not to mention the spawn aspect is lost.

I would be deleriously happy with a simple timer. Jump out a vehicle and the seat remains yours, and yours only for 30 seconds. Aftrr which point its anyones.

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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 1:23am

As a creature of habit and one opposed to change, I am not fond of the mechanic. This implementation has indirectly improved the effectiveness of traditional armor that have more than one seat available. In my perspective, this was an unnecessary addition to the game. BF3 and BF4's AMTRAC acted as the primary mobile spawn point since it was essentially a heavily armored transportation vehicle with decent armaments.

Now any vehicle has this limitless spawn capability which enhances their overall impact on the match. Tanks were already powerful in their own right behaving as invulnerable (in the right hands, of course) killing machines, so this direction just exacerbates their, already excellent, efficiency. Transport vehicles and planes having this capability is welcome and encouraged because gunners are necessary in these options, but tanks do not need this promotion in the slightest as a solo tanker is more than capable of annihilating the competition on their own (provided they have the necessary skill set).

In summary, this limitless spawn capability should be confined to just transport vehicles and airplanes and squad spawning in heavy armor for balancing purposes.
To Aim Assist or not to Aim Assist, that is the question.

Nope. Aim Assist or bust; here's why:

Default Aim Assist Data

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Prepare your laughbox

the Sebstalder is quiet good since it can 3hit kill at any distanc ,but In my opinion i actually thikn the sweeper is better, its got a really really fast firerate that can beat alll those Noobmaticos, Helregall adn shitguns in close quarters , and its also really accurate out to like l;ong range,. overall great allround gun, jsut my 2$ tho


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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 3:16am

But all of those spawning blueberries make an excellent meatshield.

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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 3:50am

I'm against locks unless someone can come up with some sort of yet-known genius way of implementing them. As a whole the game is pub game, and needs to be designed as such. The team-spawn is nothing but an improvement, and should apply to the Attack Plane as well.

However, seats being reserved for the previous occupant for 10-15 seconds (that's a very long time) is something I'd support. I'd also support being able to spawn outside any spawnable vehicle, even it it's full. This should extend to Horses.


I'd also like to see a "priority" for driver seats. Tankers/Pilots should get priority for Seat 1, and should be able to bump anyone else out of that seat (to the next available slot, or out of the vehicle if full). Supports with Wrenches would have secondary priority, being bumped by Tanker/Pilots, but bumping anyone else. One further level of priority for the specific player that spawned the vehicle would also be good, to ensure a fellow Tanker/Pilot can't steal it from them.

Spawner > Tanker/Pilot > Wrench Support > Others
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Zer0Cod3x

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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 5:16am

I'd like to see drivers be able to lock their vehicles to themselves or their squad only.


However, I also propose that extra seats be introduced into vehicles, for teammates only. These seats would have no offensive or defensive capabilities, and no weapons/gadgets would be able to be used whilst in them; they are just simply an extra seat (like from BF4, the 4th seat from the SH and MRAP). There would also be an unlimited number of these seats per vehicle (or a very large number of them).

This makes it so that non-squad teammates are still able to spawn on full vehicles or be able to take refuge during combat, without being useless/disrupting any squads. The driver would also have the capability to allow certain players into active seats.
something something Model 8 bestgun


How to ice an A-91

Next, wanna try adding a guy that you KNOW is bad, and just testing to see that? Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

Example: PP-2000 (god I so wanna love this gun, and yet...)

PP-2000 added. Y'know, it's not that bad....

Yes, it comes in last so far, but that is mostly because I'm making it shoot at 100m ADS - Not Moving as one of the criteria. Even then, between 50-100m Not Moving, when you include Useability, it is only 1.37% worse than the MTAR-21. Within 50m then it even beats the A-91.

Have a look, vs. the A-91 Carbine:




Using it with Muzzle Brake and Compensator is a wash in terms of overall performance. Comp is SLIGHTLY more accurate, while MB is SLIGHTLY more easy to use. Their overall scores are basically tied, with MB just ahead. I guess either can be recommended.

But... You can't be counting for the fact that it takes 9 bullets to kill at "long" range... Don't you dare tell me my A-91 is worse than a 9 BTK 650 RPM mediocre PDW.

Also. Just go heavy barrel. The recoil is low enough.

Well, technically...

Comparing a PP2K with HB and an A-91 with comp and stubby (as you suggested in an earlier post), at 50m not moving, the A-91 is only better by 4 damage per hitrate. While at 75m and 100m, surprisingly the PP2K does better than the A-91 (I'm pretty damn surprised as well).

And 10m and 50m moving the PP2K also does more damage per hitrate than the A-91. At 25m the A-91 is only better by about half a bullet's damage as well.

In addition, the PP2K has a much larger mag size and substantially less recoil. And it looks hella awesome. So comparing the A-91 to a PDW is of some worth after all, as the PP2K is better (technically, not practically) than the A-91.

Mind blown.

I... I...

*cries in a corner*

Zer0Cod3x explained it very well. If you look at the raw numbers right here on Symthic Comparison, you can see how that happened:

A-91 vs PP-2000 | BF4 Weapon Comparison | Symthic

A-91's "23%" RPM advantage only afforded it 1 extra round.

Reload times are wash.

Velocities are wash.

V-Recoil are wash (and this is HBar on PP2k vs. A-91 without).

Hipfire and ADS - Moving are better on the PP2k, but it's a PDW and not the surprising part.

The surprising part is that, as equipped (and we see above that PP2k HBar has almost same V-Recoil as A-91 without HBar so why not?), the PDW performs better at 50 - 100m than a bloody Carbine. Why?

H-Recoil Spread, 0.525 vs. 0.45, advantage PP2k.

SIPS, 42% better on the PP2k.

And here is the most important part. ADS - Not Moving Spread, 0.35 vs. 0.2, 43% improvement.

Without HBar then of course the PP2k loses, which is why when I add all the attachments together for an Overall Ranking, it would slot below the A-91. Run HBar on it, though, then... I'm sorry

@Veritable
@Zer0Cod3x
I... I...
But...
Wha...
I AM HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS IN SCHOOL BECAUSE OF YOU TWO.

FUCK YOU NERDS AND YOUR FANCY NUMBERS

SEXY RUSSIAN BULLPUPS FTW.

In all seriousness, thank you both so much for giving me the numbers. I still don't want to accept them. You have led the horse to water. I still need to drink.


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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 5:37am

The landship is a non-starter.

It's only viable when the gunners and the driver are communicating via VOIP because the driver needs to rotate and stabilize during sponson firing. The chances of that happening are actually lower since the supposed buff because of the spawn changes. Which renders the vehicle non viable when it's armor and weapons buffs should have actually made it viable for certain squads.

Random blueberry crews just cannot utilize the landship effectively because the sponsons can only shoot opportunistically. unless it's the tank hunter and you're facing the AT rifle plus a sponson you are actually out-firepowering the landship with the A7V since you've got 6 stowed rounds.

If people are against changing the global spawn conditions, then it should be switched so that the primary weapons (driver + 2 frontal sponsons or gunner positions) are squad only, while the rear slots are team only.

Fact remains the landship still seriously underperforms unless you can keep it to a good squad and everyone in that squad is good at vehicle.

The other problem is that succesfull tanks tend to collect "hanger ons". A full assault can carry 1 + 5 guys. It's at maximum efficiency with 1 + 3. That's two guys that could be providing close protection and rocket gun fire support. You support a tank with rocket guns at a non-specialized tank always wins against even a well crewed tank hunter or breakthrough.

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Sunday, December 25th 2016, 6:02am

I think the real issue goes a bit further back into design: The A7V should have split the front gunner into its own seat, making it a seven-seater (well, the default one). As a neat side note, it would also suit its name well, despite that not being the origin of the "7".
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